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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased.
Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it.
This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
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For one thing, I don't think Catz and Drewbie have some sort of grudge against Spades that they are trying so hard to "frame" him. In fact, I believe that those two actually defended Spades and insisted that he should be given a second chance when people were giving Spades a hard time in that thread about him going to Korea.
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On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority.
Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
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On June 06 2012 00:52 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:50 Achilles17 wrote:On June 06 2012 00:43 recallsm wrote:On June 06 2012 00:34 Achilles17 wrote:On June 06 2012 00:27 ImmortalZero617 wrote:
If you spend about 5 minutes in google you can find out that camera lock will not allow any command to go through, once you disable it your camera will return to normal, however in the replay it will look like you just stopped moving the camera. Catz kept saying his camera jerked if he was using the hack it would not jerk... Here is evidence that says otherwise. This is a feature of the hack that is brought up alot on RootCatz's stream: Camera Lock: Lock your current camera position and save selected so you can freely look around the map so that your camera movement and selections are not recorded into replay. Use this when necassary to help avoid suspicious camera movement in your replays. If you happen to leave this feature on and try to command any units it will automatically turn off, this is a safety feature so that you don't leave it. Do not click on the link below. It is a link directly to a known working macphack. For your information only. + Show Spoiler + I don't think you should post any links to hack, it's just not appropriate. As if someone suspected of hacking isn't bad enough, you're literally giving many people (who may or may not use it) access to the hack. It definitely does more harm than good. I think the link should be removed by mods. God forbid they use google and find every hack they want in less than 30 seconds... If they use google they have committed the action themselves, and of their own accord. If it is posted and allowed here, then Team Liquid has supported the spread of hacks, which Blizzard would have something to say about.
But when i explicitly state what it is, say that it's only for information purposes, AND put it in a spoilter tag, they aren't committing the action themselves when they click on it? Okay.
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On June 06 2012 00:46 Kkxtrouble wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:39 Urasim wrote:The original poster wanted to stay anonymous. To make his identity public would be a gross misuse of power on team liquids behalf. Do we point out the identity of the person who is trying to identify someone from a lineup? Nope! By USA law the acussed has the right to face his acussers. What if the acusser is a troll, what if he is a pro palyer, what if he is a blizzard employee...
Neither you nor I are the accused or the accuser, so we have no right to know the original posters identity.
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I've said this already in another thread, but...
Everyone needs to chill the fuck out and play some SC.
Really, cheating should be taken seriously but do we need a 150+ page thread about just one guy? Do we really need to drag Koreans into this for no legitimate reason? Fuck, no! Relax. Drink a coke or something.
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What a lot of people don't seem to understand about the OP is most of his facts are readily available for any person to deduce on their own. What does it matter what his identity is?
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On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him".
Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu.
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On June 05 2012 23:26 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote:On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades. To be fair, though, there is no evidence that they thought he was a hacker in SC2 before they saw the VODs themselves for the first time. People that watched that live show bemoan that they "already had their minds made up" when they looked at the replays, but of course they did. It was not the first time they looked at the replays. There's no evidence that the first time they looked at the replays that they were looking at them through tinted glasses. It's just that by the time they felt compelled to share it with the community, they knew what they believed and they knew what they wanted everyone else to know. If they truly believe that they hacked and they believe, like many pros do, that hacking should be incredibly harshly punished, then their actions are perfectly understandable. To them, they have the smoking gun and they want to make sure that it is known. It's precisely what others have said with the "let third party pros decide if there was cheating going on instead of the general public". That's what these guys were: pro players that felt there was cheating going on here. Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something. What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him. The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion. Wall of text. User was warned for this post
Too lazy to read paragraphs? Maybe TeamLiquid isn't the website for you.
But to give my insight, the OP clearly got this from Lucifron and according to the analysis that people have made on the replay file and on the OP's contributions to Liquipedia, drolets is clearly Spanish and perhaps a friend or sibling of Lucifron. Lucifron or one of the referees in the match was probably suspicious of Spades' haphazard, perhaps maphacking play and asked drolets to analyse the replay, which Lucifron gave him.
Bluntly speaking, Lucifron wouldn't have handed over the replay if he wasn't reasonably suspicious himself of Spades's play. There seems to be a lot of empirical evidence that suggests Spades was hacking but apart from a few suspicious moves (such as never moving his camera into fog-of-war, haphazard "21st century metagaming" army movements against nothing in vision, strong evidence of camera-locking and a moment where he almost instantaneously selected and de-selected SCVs in one of the games during a camera block without forming a box to select said units), there is nothing that says 100% "Spades is a hacker."
I'd be interested to see how this spans out. I think if ReIGN's president confirmed that Spades (as well as Artist) was stream cheating during team league matches and some smaller online events and he had previously been given a second chance after being a notable map hacker in BW, then I question Spades's honesty.
At least TT1 is man enough to admit his cheating days and try ever so hard to atone for it. Spades on the other hand? You have to remember that this guy called HwangSin a gook and threatened physical violence upon him before such actions could get your sponsors spammed by 'white knights.'
That incident and what the ReIGN president said makes me question Spades's credibility.
EDIT: In case anybody doesn't believe me, here is the image that caused controversy months ago from Reddit:
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On June 06 2012 00:57 RonNation wrote:
What a lot of people don't seem to understand about the OP is most of his facts are readily available for any person to deduce on their own. What does it matter what his identity is?
So if a lot of his facts have been discredited does that make every single one of us idiots?
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On June 06 2012 00:57 RonNation wrote:
What a lot of people don't seem to understand about the OP is most of his facts are readily available for any person to deduce on their own. What does it matter what his identity is?
Yes it does.
If you're gonna call someone out then fucking man up and don't hide behind a smurf.
I don't even care whether Spades is guilty or not, we can't have random people making a new account just to shit on someone.
This is actually one of the biggest problems with the community and why so many pros facepalm: randoms can post uninformed opinions and shit all over something with little to no repercussions.
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On June 06 2012 00:51 SCII-ALI wrote:
Spades, please answer this following question instead of ignoring it every time it pops up.
Why do you not look into the fog of war not even once in bo7? and why do you do it every 5 seconds in ladder matches you provided us. Stop dodging the question and just answer.
This is the million dollar question. Also it is the most incriminating and sure proof evidence.
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On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu.
Are you serious? Credibility matters hugely when evidence is being presented. Wtf? Evidence can be exaggerated, misleading, incomplete, and so on (all of these occurred in the OP's post, by the way). It makes it very difficult to take the central thesis seriously when it's established that the OP was so far off the mark on a great many of his points.
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On June 06 2012 00:57 RonNation wrote:
What a lot of people don't seem to understand about the OP is most of his facts are readily available for any person to deduce on their own. What does it matter what his identity is?
Exactly. At this point it doesn't really matter that much who OP is and what he said, because there a numerous pro's here providing compelling reasons to doubt spades' legitimacy. Furthermore, the games are available for everyone, you can watch and decide for yourself if you think all these pro's are somehow conspiring against him.
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On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question.
With exaggerated you mean not everyone agrees with it? Considering that if OP posted his name the Spades defenders would, in true liquidian fashion, open a witch hunt on him for any unscrupulous behavior ever it's very understandable.
If the only way you'll believe it is some undoubtable proof of hacking then you'll never believe it as this proof can not exist under the current circumstances, Spades lies and Blizzard is incompetent.
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On June 06 2012 00:58 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:26 InMotion wrote:On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote:On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades. To be fair, though, there is no evidence that they thought he was a hacker in SC2 before they saw the VODs themselves for the first time. People that watched that live show bemoan that they "already had their minds made up" when they looked at the replays, but of course they did. It was not the first time they looked at the replays. There's no evidence that the first time they looked at the replays that they were looking at them through tinted glasses. It's just that by the time they felt compelled to share it with the community, they knew what they believed and they knew what they wanted everyone else to know. If they truly believe that they hacked and they believe, like many pros do, that hacking should be incredibly harshly punished, then their actions are perfectly understandable. To them, they have the smoking gun and they want to make sure that it is known. It's precisely what others have said with the "let third party pros decide if there was cheating going on instead of the general public". That's what these guys were: pro players that felt there was cheating going on here. Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something. What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him. The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion. Wall of text. User was warned for this post Too lazy to read paragraphs? Maybe TeamLiquid isn't the website for you. But to give my insight, the OP clearly got this from Lucifron and according to the analysis that people have made on the replay file and on the OP's contributions to Liquipedia, drolets is clearly Spanish and perhaps a friend or sibling of Lucifron. Lucifron or one of the referees in the match was probably suspicious of Spades' haphazard, perhaps maphacking play and asked drolets to analyse the replay, which Lucifron gave him. Bluntly speaking, Lucifron wouldn't have handed over the replay if he wasn't reasonably suspicious himself of Spades's play. There seems to be a lot of empirical evidence that suggests Spades was hacking but apart from a few suspicious moves (such as never moving his camera into fog-of-war, haphazard "21st century metagaming" army movements against nothing in vision, strong evidence of camera-locking and a moment where he almost instantaneously selected and de-selected SCVs in one of the games during a camera block without forming a box to select said units), there is nothing that says 100% "Spades is a hacker." I'd be interested to see how this spans out. I think if ReIGN's president confirmed that Spades (as well as Artist) was stream cheating during team league matches and some smaller online events and he had previously been given a second chance after being a notable map hacker in BW, then I question Spades's honesty. At least TT1 is man enough to admit his cheating days and try ever so hard to atone for it. Spades on the other hand? You have to remember that this guy called HwangSin a gook and threatened physical violence upon him at an MLG before such actions could get your sponsors spammed by 'white knights.'
This thread is about Spades.
Dont bring TT1's past and Artist missunderstanding into this 
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On June 06 2012 00:58 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:55 Shiori wrote:On June 06 2012 00:54 Jinsho wrote:On June 06 2012 00:48 Shiori wrote:
I want to know if he's unbiased. Judge the evidence, not the person presenting it. This is the kind of thinking that makes people susceptible to authority. Considering a good deal of the OP has been shown to have been exaggerated, the OP's credibility has been called into question. There is no such thing as credibility of the person presenting EVIDENCE. This is again a deference to authority. "oh hes a proplayer surely he knows best". "oh he's a spanish guy so I don't believe him". Analyse the evidence. Don't be lazy and have others do it for oyu.
Would you rather have a doctor's opinion of what's wrong with your spine or a janitor's?
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When were the games played in relation to the stream. Could it have been stream cheating and not maphacking?
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I recommend everyone watching the Catz analyzis. You can of course say "oh, but they are looking for it, so they will obvs find fishy shit", but in my mind there is no doubt. I think mostly the arguments involving gamesense and shit is really vague, but what really turned my opinion around is the argument concerning the "fog of war" and the scan.
If you watch the games he is streaming, he is going into the fog of war 10-30 times every game. In the series against Lucifron he doesn't do it even once. How the fuck can you explain that? You can't. Also the scan argument, which is well explained in the analyze, is impossible to get away from.
When I first read this thread I was like wtf, these arguments are so thin, but when you start looking into it I feel its very obvious if you pay attention to the right stuff.
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What really makes me think that Spades is guilty of hacking is that no pro or big manager, anything like that, is defending or explaining Spades actions in the replays. There are a few people not accusing him but keep in mind that NONE of them are defending him.
I also want to adress people who call out the community as a whole: The starcraft community is an intelligent community, at least its biggest part. I see hardly anyone making their own judgements, people rather follow the opinions of pros. To me this is a great thing. Hardly anybody is arrogant enough to think he knows better than pros. A sign of intelligence.
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EPT
