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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
So we have an anonymous OP making accusations and a bunch of pros attention-whoring with their comments instead of dealing with it amongst themselves. Why would you guys do that? The fact that you're even saying anything here that even implies hacking ruins Spades' rep without any definitive proof. Pretty classless.
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On June 06 2012 00:23 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. lucifron wished spades good luck before the game, he got his wish, what's wrong with that? How do you explain the fact that spades got rip apart by drops? you can't just cherry pick a single instant and say that's your proof that spades hacks, you must look at all the games as a whole. you can't just ignore other facts that contradicts your argument. What you guys doing is scientifically and logically foul play. Team liquid is better than this cluster fuck of mass logical fallacy. When spades, testie and TT1 was hacking during the BW days, ppl call them out for hacking way before the technology was available to detect hacks via replay, yet we didn't made this kinds of stupid accusation without irrefutable proofs. We are better than this.
Explain the scan on shakuras. As a masters terran I would love to know the new meta.
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On June 06 2012 00:18 slicknav wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:12 ronpaul012 wrote:
Well, the mob with pitchforks over at reddit appear to have spoken. Whether or not he's guilty appears to be irrelevant now that the mob will come after him. because there's no retarded mob here over at TL, right?
I don't know about reddit, but at least there are some reasonable voices here at TL. It should just be: innocent until proven guilty, everything else is just disgusting.
I got the impression that at least half the people here would defend this point of view. And I guess that's better than reddit(just guessing)
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On June 06 2012 00:22 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:21 Chargelot wrote:On June 06 2012 00:18 sVnteen wrote:On June 06 2012 00:16 Chargelot wrote:On June 06 2012 00:14 StreetWise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team. What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust. I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust. This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more. The only problem is, how else do you prove someone is hacking besides analyzing their replays. Unless someone is blatantly streaming themselves with their hack on there is no other way of proving that someone hacks besides what Catz and other TL netizens have done. There is this corporation known as Blizzard Entertainment. I hear they're the leading experts in StarCraft 2, and if they have not been actuated, it is likely that Spades isn't cheating. Speculation based evidence + no reaction from the authority in the field = guilty? Give me a break. yeah because blizzard bans all cheaters instantly there are no cheaters on their servers at any point in time... i hope you don't really think that... If your ONLY evidence is that CatZ told you so, that means you've no right to call him guilty. If the ONLY people in the entire WORLD who can tell you if he was or was not hacking has not done so, you have no right to call him guilty. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Circumstantial Evidence What makes you think blizzard is in a position to judge whether he hacks? There has been a plethora of different undetected hacks since before sc2 had even been released...
because unlike everyone here, blizzard has actually developed many resources to detect such cheaters, can monitor the data, etc.
of course they're not foolproof, but if evidence is going to come from any source, it should be blizz.
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On June 06 2012 00:22 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:21 Chargelot wrote:On June 06 2012 00:18 sVnteen wrote:On June 06 2012 00:16 Chargelot wrote:On June 06 2012 00:14 StreetWise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team. What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust. I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust. This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more. The only problem is, how else do you prove someone is hacking besides analyzing their replays. Unless someone is blatantly streaming themselves with their hack on there is no other way of proving that someone hacks besides what Catz and other TL netizens have done. There is this corporation known as Blizzard Entertainment. I hear they're the leading experts in StarCraft 2, and if they have not been actuated, it is likely that Spades isn't cheating. Speculation based evidence + no reaction from the authority in the field = guilty? Give me a break. yeah because blizzard bans all cheaters instantly there are no cheaters on their servers at any point in time... i hope you don't really think that... If your ONLY evidence is that CatZ told you so, that means you've no right to call him guilty. If the ONLY people in the entire WORLD who can tell you if he was or was not hacking has not done so, you have no right to call him guilty. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Circumstantial Evidence What makes you think blizzard is in a position to judge whether he hacks? There has been a plethora of different undetected hacks since before sc2 had even been released...
What makes you think Blizzard hasn't detected them? Lack of banning doesn't equate to lack of knowledge.
That said, if your only foundation of your belief that he is hacking is based on personal, subjective observations made by yourself and others, which lacks definitive evidence ( ie "Spades: I am currently maphacking in this game!"), and the only other source of information available has not made a move yet, the idea that he is in fact guilty, is quite literally baseless.
It stands upon personal opinion, not fact. You can't just say "You're a hacker because I have indirectly observed you doing something which may or may not be the result of hacking."
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If you spend about 5 minutes in google you can find out that camera lock will not allow any command to go through, once you disable it your camera will return to normal, however in the replay it will look like you just stopped moving the camera. Catz kept saying his camera jerked if he was using the hack it would not jerk...
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Can the Mods please tell us who OP is smurfing for? Its hardly fair that hes trying to ruin Spades' career without taking any of the flak for it, and still has 1 post in this 160 page thread, meaning hes posting on it with his main right now.
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On June 06 2012 00:24 Tippecanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:23 rei wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. lucifron wished spades good luck before the game, he got his wish, what's wrong with that? How do you explain the fact that spades got rip apart by drops? you can't just cherry pick a single instant and say that's your proof that spades hacks, you must look at all the games as a whole. you can't just ignore other facts that contradicts your argument. What you guys doing is scientifically and logically foul play. Team liquid is better than this cluster fuck of mass logical fallacy. When spades, testie and TT1 was hacking during the BW days, ppl call them out for hacking way before the technology was available to detect hacks via replay, yet we didn't made this kinds of stupid accusation without irrefutable proofs. We are better than this. Explain the scan on shakuras. As a masters terran I would love to know the new meta.
Lucifron wished it.
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On June 06 2012 00:25 RolleMcKnolle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:18 slicknav wrote:On June 06 2012 00:12 ronpaul012 wrote:
Well, the mob with pitchforks over at reddit appear to have spoken. Whether or not he's guilty appears to be irrelevant now that the mob will come after him. because there's no retarded mob here over at TL, right? I don't know about reddit, but at least there are some reasonable voices here at TL. It should just be: innocent until proven guilty, everything else is just disgusting. I got the impression that at least half the people here would defend this point of view. And I guess that's better than reddit(just guessing)
I've found the discussion on Reddit about this to be far superior than here simply because all the bullshit/trolling/one liners/off topic stuff gets downvoted there. Here it just clogs up the thread.
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Omg, can´t belive this thread is still open. Both sides were heard, no more than drama at this point on.
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On June 06 2012 00:13 OzVelas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:55 Tippecanoe wrote:
That scan on shakuras.
God damn. Just god damn. Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... i just saw the scan, wtf 100% hacking
In the loading screen you can see its MLG Shakuras which is forced cross spawn.
"Starting spawns on Shakuras Plateau have been modified to ensure cross-map spawns only."
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/mlg/mlg-starcraft-2-map-pool
So... not really 50/50.
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On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it.
That was strictly bad play. Even if he wasn;t hacking he had vision of the push coming from the watch tower he simply got caught up defending the drop
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On June 06 2012 00:28 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:13 OzVelas wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:55 Tippecanoe wrote:
That scan on shakuras.
God damn. Just god damn. Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... i just saw the scan, wtf 100% hacking In the loading screen you can see its MLG Shakuras which is forced cross spawn. "Starting spawns on Shakuras Plateau have been modified to ensure cross-map spawns only." http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/mlg/mlg-starcraft-2-map-poolSo... not really 50/50.
"Changes Made between Dallas and Columbus:
MLG Shakuras Plateau has been updated to Blizzard version 1.5, and spawn locations will be identical to those allowed by Blizzard."
They updated it since Dallas to ladder version
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On June 06 2012 00:27 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:24 Tippecanoe wrote:On June 06 2012 00:23 rei wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. lucifron wished spades good luck before the game, he got his wish, what's wrong with that? How do you explain the fact that spades got rip apart by drops? you can't just cherry pick a single instant and say that's your proof that spades hacks, you must look at all the games as a whole. you can't just ignore other facts that contradicts your argument. What you guys doing is scientifically and logically foul play. Team liquid is better than this cluster fuck of mass logical fallacy. When spades, testie and TT1 was hacking during the BW days, ppl call them out for hacking way before the technology was available to detect hacks via replay, yet we didn't made this kinds of stupid accusation without irrefutable proofs. We are better than this. Explain the scan on shakuras. As a masters terran I would love to know the new meta. Lucifron wished it.
See this is exactly why i only say hf.
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On June 06 2012 00:28 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:13 OzVelas wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:55 Tippecanoe wrote:
That scan on shakuras.
God damn. Just god damn. Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... i just saw the scan, wtf 100% hacking In the loading screen you can see its MLG Shakuras which is forced cross spawn. "Starting spawns on Shakuras Plateau have been modified to ensure cross-map spawns only." http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/mlg/mlg-starcraft-2-map-poolSo... not really 50/50.
Good point...not.
LucifroN scouted the wrong position first. Okay, you're going to say that it's a mistake from him.
Then how about Spades own SCV's checkpoints? The SCV is rallied on the horizontal position first, then at the top left on the map. Why would he do that?
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On June 06 2012 00:31 DLBob wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:28 TheFrankOne wrote:On June 06 2012 00:13 OzVelas wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:55 Tippecanoe wrote:
That scan on shakuras.
God damn. Just god damn. Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... i just saw the scan, wtf 100% hacking In the loading screen you can see its MLG Shakuras which is forced cross spawn. "Starting spawns on Shakuras Plateau have been modified to ensure cross-map spawns only." http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/mlg/mlg-starcraft-2-map-poolSo... not really 50/50. "Changes Made between Dallas and Columbus: MLG Shakuras Plateau has been updated to Blizzard version 1.5, and spawn locations will be identical to those allowed by Blizzard." They updated it since Dallas to ladder version
Spades didn't necessarily know that. It's quite a common problem, actually. A lot of pros have no idea whats going on with tournament specific maps, because they get changed so often.
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On June 06 2012 00:31 Tippecanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:27 rei wrote:On June 06 2012 00:24 Tippecanoe wrote:On June 06 2012 00:23 rei wrote:On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment. lucifron wished spades good luck before the game, he got his wish, what's wrong with that? How do you explain the fact that spades got rip apart by drops? you can't just cherry pick a single instant and say that's your proof that spades hacks, you must look at all the games as a whole. you can't just ignore other facts that contradicts your argument. What you guys doing is scientifically and logically foul play. Team liquid is better than this cluster fuck of mass logical fallacy. When spades, testie and TT1 was hacking during the BW days, ppl call them out for hacking way before the technology was available to detect hacks via replay, yet we didn't made this kinds of stupid accusation without irrefutable proofs. We are better than this. Explain the scan on shakuras. As a masters terran I would love to know the new meta. Lucifron wished it. See this is exactly why i only say hf.
Wishing for people to hf is bad too, because if they have fun most likely they're winning.
Idra is a smart guy.
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On June 06 2012 00:27 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Can the Mods please tell us who OP is smurfing for? Its hardly fair that hes trying to ruin Spades' career without taking any of the flak for it, and still has 1 post in this 160 page thread, meaning hes posting on it with his main right now.
There is no same IP as OP on TL.
The mods already tried that.
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On June 06 2012 00:28 TheFrankOne wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 00:13 OzVelas wrote:On June 06 2012 00:00 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:55 Tippecanoe wrote:
That scan on shakuras.
God damn. Just god damn. Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... i just saw the scan, wtf 100% hacking In the loading screen you can see its MLG Shakuras which is forced cross spawn. "Starting spawns on Shakuras Plateau have been modified to ensure cross-map spawns only." http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/mlg/mlg-starcraft-2-map-poolSo... not really 50/50.
Then why did he send his scouting scv to the not cross-spawned position if he knew it was forced cross only? The scouting scv was queued to go to the wrong spawn, so he didn't know where the actual spawn location was.
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EPT
