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[?] Spades hacking? - Page 156

Forum Index > SC2 General
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here

10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.

08:47 KST - Summary:
Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.

Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.

(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
TheLemontree
Profile Joined June 2012
United Kingdom2 Posts
June 05 2012 15:03 GMT
#3101
On June 05 2012 23:56 benkei wrote:
If he can´t look into the fog of war how is this possible?

+ Show Spoiler +
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/


There are other examples too I saw during Catz's VODs. I'm surprised they didn't pick up and talk about them, but they seemed to have already made up their minds.
papaz
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden4149 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 15:03:26
June 05 2012 15:03 GMT
#3102
On June 05 2012 23:56 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.


What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.


I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust.

This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.


this isnt a trial. spades will not get any punishment from people discussing this on a forum.

this debate is not different from media writing about OJ Simpsons or someone else suspected of commiting a crime.

do you think that a columnist or blogger shouldnt be allowed to say "i think oj simpson is a criminal" just because it can hurt his image and scare sponsors? what strange world do you want to live in?


ROFL

you're joking right?

This is as close to a trial you get in a starcraft 2 world. In case you haven't noticed the mob mentality of TL and Reddit have ruined/damaged careers.

This isn't just a columnist writing his opinions and then everything is all good and dandy.

And I did not say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about the subject. Don't even try to pull a strawman.

I responded to a post where the poster basically wrote Spades off because of "pros opinions". Not because he had his own analyis, evidence or anything else. But because "if we can't trust pros who can we trust".
Dodgin
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada39254 Posts
June 05 2012 15:03 GMT
#3103
On June 05 2012 23:58 Chargelot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:56 benkei wrote:
If he can´t look into the fog of war how is this possible?

+ Show Spoiler +
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/

You can click anywhere on the map, regardless of your ability to see it.
Oh I'm stupid, you mean Camera Locking. ^^ good find.


afaik if you click your units into the fog of war the camera will show it, It's only if you don't take any actions and are simply observing the map. You can see him clicking in that SS.
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 05 2012 15:03 GMT
#3104
On June 05 2012 23:57 papaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:49 ETisME wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.


What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.


I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust.

This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.

what do you mean it doesn't rely on trust? @@

police provide a report, the justice system has to trust that the report is accurate
witness gives a testimony, the justice system has to trust on that unless there are strong presence of evidence that the witness might be brided or lying


Spades has been found "guilty". Tell me it isn't so?

I'm not going to talk about the justice system in general. There are lots of bad examples around the world. At least where I am from I can't say I have seen examples of people being convicted by the court because "there was a police report" or "there was this one witness".

There is a trial and there is evidence along with witnesses presented. The person on trial is still innocent until proven guilty.

Tell me that is the case with Spades? Tell me he is still seen as innocent? Because there is no evidence that he has hacked.


lol circumstantial evidence still counts as evidence, man. It's admissible in court.

Also this isn't a court case. The burden of proof for employers firing employees, for example, is a lot lower than the burden of proof of a judge finding someone guilty of manslaughter. We don't have to be beyond a reasonable doubt to believe something. Just look at cases such as OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony - neither case had enough proof to hurdle the "beyond a reasonable doubt" wall, but people can still appropriately believe that they performed the crimes they were accused of.

Spades isn't on trial, but his reputation will be tarnished from this.
-stOpSKY-
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada498 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 15:03:41
June 05 2012 15:03 GMT
#3105
On June 05 2012 23:53 Starshaped wrote:
Somebody needs to make a youtube video of the "siege, move almost nothing, re-siege without vision for no reason" moment on Cloud Kingdom and it should be mandatory viewing before anyone posts any more in this thread.

There is NO NEED to go into anything more than those really, REALLY obvious hacking moments like Cloud Kingdom. I don't care if the "magic scan" is explainable. There is enough damming evidence as it stands.

Let's review:

*7 games all containing really suspicious moves.
*Spades playing completely different compared to his streamed sessions/released replays as far as map-orientation goes
*Almost unheard of low-tier NA player almost beating top EU player in a showmatch that, while not sporting a monetary prize, is the one way Spades can get any sort of attention (which means it was a really important match for him).
*Former hacker

OBVIOUSLY there is no way to 100% prove it, and there never will be, But beyond doubt he is hacking. Just watch the Cloud Kingdom moment, just please watch it. He's hacking. He's hacking trash and you need to stop defending him because he deserves no support or sympathy. It's over.

And to anyone saying the fact that he lost, or the fact that he didn't play perfectly proves he isn't hacking: Maphack doesn't magically make you good at the game, and obviously anyone resorting to using it is fucking awful to begin with so don't expect much. Honestly, Lucifron is so much better than Spades that I would bet on Lucifron every single time even if Spades was allowed maphack.


MateShade
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia736 Posts
June 05 2012 15:04 GMT
#3106
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:00 recallsm wrote:
to pantythief, just had to make this, specially for you



Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too.

Lol what? Dude get out
the p00n
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 15:04:51
June 05 2012 15:04 GMT
#3107
Furthermore it is extremely easy to see things as suspicious. I could open up any replay what-so-ever and find suspicious things. Let us take this for example:

Shattered temple, 5:47, Spades' POV. Oh my God, he leaves 2 marines at the front and sends the rest of his marines to the back of his base for absolutely no reason at all as a banshee or medivac could not be out yet, and CONVENIENTLY a scouting barracks from lucifron that was STILL IN THE FOG OF WAR(!!!) flew over that exact spot.

PROOF:

http://i.imgur.com/YPqok.jpg

...except there is no scouting barracks and he really just randomly moved his marines there accomplishing pretty much nothing.
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
June 05 2012 15:04 GMT
#3108
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:00 recallsm wrote:
to pantythief, just had to make this, specially for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrUj2u7O4Y&feature=youtu.be


Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too.


WHAT point are you trying to make????
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
June 05 2012 15:05 GMT
#3109
On June 06 2012 00:03 papaz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:56 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.


What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.


I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust.

This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.


this isnt a trial. spades will not get any punishment from people discussing this on a forum.

this debate is not different from media writing about OJ Simpsons or someone else suspected of commiting a crime.

do you think that a columnist or blogger shouldnt be allowed to say "i think oj simpson is a criminal" just because it can hurt his image and scare sponsors? what strange world do you want to live in?


ROFL

you're joking right?

This is as close to a trial you get in a starcraft 2 world. In case you haven't noticed the mob mentality of TL and Reddit have ruined/damaged careers.

This isn't just a columnist writing his opinions and then everything is all good and dandy.

And I did not say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about the subject. Don't even try to pull a strawman.

I responded to a post where the poster basically wrote Spades off because of "pros opinions". Not because he had his own analyis, evidence or anything else. But because "if we can't trust pros who can we trust".


Well, in the face of naivete, they are the right ones to trust, they know how a GM player should be playing.

Similarly, you look to experts in certain fields when doing cases. Psychologists, doctors, engineers, etc. are brought in to argue legal cases, because they have more background into the subject than any lawyer or judge.

I would trust Pros' opinions as well because they have the knowledge to understand the movements in the game that most normal people would not be able to comprehend. They also know how an inappropriate accusation can harm one's career (since it could happen to them).
LaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States1321 Posts
June 05 2012 15:06 GMT
#3110
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:00 recallsm wrote:
to pantythief, just had to make this, specially for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrUj2u7O4Y&feature=youtu.be


Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too.


Then what is your point? You have virtually no argument if that missed the point lol. I guess you have to be trolling at this point.

Please, just stop posting. If you need more evidence that you are wrong (besides everyone else with a brain telling you so...) than please watch this:

http://replayfu.com/download/dHkGTr

I hate feeding trolls, but on the off chance this one isn't...
Anything is Possible
Starshaped
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Sweden575 Posts
June 05 2012 15:06 GMT
#3111
On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:59 Starshaped wrote:
Nobody defending Spades seems to want to touch the Cloud Kingdom moment.


What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it.


09:50 on Cloud Kingdom.

Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
My Starcraft 2, gaming and e-sports-related blog: http://starshapedthoughts.blogspot.com/
Tippecanoe
Profile Joined May 2011
United States342 Posts
June 05 2012 15:06 GMT
#3112
Just like the orb incident. If he just told the truth from the get-go it wouldn't even have gotten half as bad as it is now.
Clarity_nl
Profile Joined November 2011
Netherlands6826 Posts
June 05 2012 15:07 GMT
#3113
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:00 recallsm wrote:
to pantythief, just had to make this, specially for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrUj2u7O4Y&feature=youtu.be


Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too.


I shall quote you:

On June 05 2012 23:45 Pantythief wrote:
Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT AGAINST STUPIDITY CLARITY, I BELIEVE IN YOU! - Palmar
latan
Profile Joined July 2010
740 Posts
June 05 2012 15:09 GMT
#3114
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:00 recallsm wrote:
to pantythief, just had to make this, specially for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrUj2u7O4Y&feature=youtu.be


Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too.


here, a better example:

http://www.mediafire.com/?d90fruazkfy1s19

papaz
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden4149 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-05 15:11:34
June 05 2012 15:09 GMT
#3115
On June 06 2012 00:05 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 06 2012 00:03 papaz wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:56 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.


What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.


I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust.

This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.


this isnt a trial. spades will not get any punishment from people discussing this on a forum.

this debate is not different from media writing about OJ Simpsons or someone else suspected of commiting a crime.

do you think that a columnist or blogger shouldnt be allowed to say "i think oj simpson is a criminal" just because it can hurt his image and scare sponsors? what strange world do you want to live in?


ROFL

you're joking right?

This is as close to a trial you get in a starcraft 2 world. In case you haven't noticed the mob mentality of TL and Reddit have ruined/damaged careers.

This isn't just a columnist writing his opinions and then everything is all good and dandy.

And I did not say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about the subject. Don't even try to pull a strawman.

I responded to a post where the poster basically wrote Spades off because of "pros opinions". Not because he had his own analyis, evidence or anything else. But because "if we can't trust pros who can we trust".


Well, in the face of naivete, they are the right ones to trust, they know how a GM player should be playing.

Similarly, you look to experts in certain fields when doing cases. Psychologists, doctors, engineers, etc. are brought in to argue legal cases, because they have more background into the subject than any lawyer or judge.

I would trust Pros' opinions as well because they have the knowledge to understand the movements in the game that most normal people would not be able to comprehend. They also know how an inappropriate accusation can harm one's career (since it could happen to them).


Ok, fair enough. I admit when I think someone has a good point and you sir have a good point.

I just can't help feeling this has been handled poorly. I just hate the fact an anonymous OP threw Spades under a bus and the mob took over from that point on.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
June 05 2012 15:10 GMT
#3116
It's useless to try to reason with Pantythief apparently. People give him replays and youtube videos to watch and he's still one-lining us back in the ropes. I think he just wants to get rid of his TL account.
joeschmo
Profile Joined January 2011
United States167 Posts
June 05 2012 15:10 GMT
#3117
Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments.
Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play.
If you're not maphacking, that is...


I've done it and seen masters players do it, it's because you think they have the watch towers & will kill the scv so you just throw a blind scan, it's just poor play, and with the cloud kingdom seige, i think that's poor play as well, maybe he fear'd after he unseiged he would stim and run in to attack knowing he played bio, or maybe it was a misclick, just another coincidence imo, the best argument i've seen is him never looking into the fog of war....but, looking into the fog of war is bad play, but NEVER looking into the fog of war is suspicious...
Josh111
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States239 Posts
June 05 2012 15:10 GMT
#3118
On June 05 2012 23:56 benkei wrote:
If he can´t look into the fog of war how is this possible?

+ Show Spoiler +
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/


From what i understand if you right click into fog of war with the hack it doesn't proc the screen lock. Might be wrong tho, good find tho either way!
Ophiophilius
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada42 Posts
June 05 2012 15:10 GMT
#3119
On June 05 2012 23:51 Pantythief wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 23:49 LaM wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:45 Pantythief wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:41 ZenithM wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:23 ZenithM wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.


You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.

Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.


No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.

Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248&currentpage=139#2768

I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting.
What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions"
Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.

Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.


So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.


This just is flat out wrong. Again. Stop asking multiple people for proof when you are completely, totally, and without fail wrong on everything you say about the camera function in replays.

You need to go make a game and move around the map. Try all the things you are saying. Then watch the replay. Seriously, stop asking people for proof when your proof is you making things up about hypothetical situations that you are wrong about.

The world isn't out to get you. The ten people repeating that you are wrong aren't part of a conspiracy. You are just wrong.


I don't care about 2-3 people who disagrees with me, mate. I got proof, you don't.


http://drop.sc/191945

here is proof showing that the camera view of the replay is the same as the player in the game.
I just played this 1v1, and if you watch the first 2 minutes of the game, you see me sending my overlord close air on metal, via the minimap and the camera doesn't leave my mineral line, then when I see my opponent isn't there, I redirect my overlord to the top left via the minimap again, the camera doesn't leave my overlord, once a gain. and when I expand I send my scouting drone to the top right main via the minimap, and the camera doesn't leave my natural
HyperionDreamer
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1528 Posts
June 05 2012 15:11 GMT
#3120
On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote:
Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something.

What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him.

The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion.

This is exactly the problem - people form their opinions from random 1 post count smurfs making threads like this, and then they email sponsors regarding these problems. The burden of proof in the real world is on the accuser, but here, as you said, it's been placed on Spades. And again, as you mentioned, it's incredibly hard to prove the absence of "star sense" or suspicious behaviour as people have started to define it in this thread.

He did release his past 100 replays from the ladder, so what I'm guessing is that his team and his peers are going to form a judgement based on comparing the Lucifron replays to what is being shown in the ladder replays. There'll be a statement coming from the team I'm guessing in the next 2-3 days, so honestly a mod should lock this thread and wait for that statement.
BW4life! Jaedong ~ Savior ~ Shine ; "drowning sorrows in late night infomercials" - bnYsooch
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