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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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TheLemontree
United Kingdom2 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:56 benkei wrote: If he can´t look into the fog of war how is this possible? + Show Spoiler + http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/ There are other examples too I saw during Catz's VODs. I'm surprised they didn't pick up and talk about them, but they seemed to have already made up their minds. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:56 Soma.bokforlag wrote: this isnt a trial. spades will not get any punishment from people discussing this on a forum. this debate is not different from media writing about OJ Simpsons or someone else suspected of commiting a crime. do you think that a columnist or blogger shouldnt be allowed to say "i think oj simpson is a criminal" just because it can hurt his image and scare sponsors? what strange world do you want to live in? ROFL you're joking right? This is as close to a trial you get in a starcraft 2 world. In case you haven't noticed the mob mentality of TL and Reddit have ruined/damaged careers. This isn't just a columnist writing his opinions and then everything is all good and dandy. And I did not say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about the subject. Don't even try to pull a strawman. I responded to a post where the poster basically wrote Spades off because of "pros opinions". Not because he had his own analyis, evidence or anything else. But because "if we can't trust pros who can we trust". | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:58 Chargelot wrote: Oh I'm stupid, you mean Camera Locking. ^^ good find. afaik if you click your units into the fog of war the camera will show it, It's only if you don't take any actions and are simply observing the map. You can see him clicking in that SS. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:57 papaz wrote: Spades has been found "guilty". Tell me it isn't so? I'm not going to talk about the justice system in general. There are lots of bad examples around the world. At least where I am from I can't say I have seen examples of people being convicted by the court because "there was a police report" or "there was this one witness". There is a trial and there is evidence along with witnesses presented. The person on trial is still innocent until proven guilty. Tell me that is the case with Spades? Tell me he is still seen as innocent? Because there is no evidence that he has hacked. lol circumstantial evidence still counts as evidence, man. It's admissible in court. Also this isn't a court case. The burden of proof for employers firing employees, for example, is a lot lower than the burden of proof of a judge finding someone guilty of manslaughter. We don't have to be beyond a reasonable doubt to believe something. Just look at cases such as OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony - neither case had enough proof to hurdle the "beyond a reasonable doubt" wall, but people can still appropriately believe that they performed the crimes they were accused of. Spades isn't on trial, but his reputation will be tarnished from this. | ||
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-stOpSKY-
Canada498 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:53 Starshaped wrote: Somebody needs to make a youtube video of the "siege, move almost nothing, re-siege without vision for no reason" moment on Cloud Kingdom and it should be mandatory viewing before anyone posts any more in this thread. There is NO NEED to go into anything more than those really, REALLY obvious hacking moments like Cloud Kingdom. I don't care if the "magic scan" is explainable. There is enough damming evidence as it stands. Let's review: *7 games all containing really suspicious moves. *Spades playing completely different compared to his streamed sessions/released replays as far as map-orientation goes *Almost unheard of low-tier NA player almost beating top EU player in a showmatch that, while not sporting a monetary prize, is the one way Spades can get any sort of attention (which means it was a really important match for him). *Former hacker OBVIOUSLY there is no way to 100% prove it, and there never will be, But beyond doubt he is hacking. Just watch the Cloud Kingdom moment, just please watch it. He's hacking. He's hacking trash and you need to stop defending him because he deserves no support or sympathy. It's over. And to anyone saying the fact that he lost, or the fact that he didn't play perfectly proves he isn't hacking: Maphack doesn't magically make you good at the game, and obviously anyone resorting to using it is fucking awful to begin with so don't expect much. Honestly, Lucifron is so much better than Spades that I would bet on Lucifron every single time even if Spades was allowed maphack. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote: Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too. Lol what? Dude get out | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
Shattered temple, 5:47, Spades' POV. Oh my God, he leaves 2 marines at the front and sends the rest of his marines to the back of his base for absolutely no reason at all as a banshee or medivac could not be out yet, and CONVENIENTLY a scouting barracks from lucifron that was STILL IN THE FOG OF WAR(!!!) flew over that exact spot. PROOF: http://i.imgur.com/YPqok.jpg ...except there is no scouting barracks and he really just randomly moved his marines there accomplishing pretty much nothing. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote: Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too. WHAT point are you trying to make???? | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:03 papaz wrote: ROFL you're joking right? This is as close to a trial you get in a starcraft 2 world. In case you haven't noticed the mob mentality of TL and Reddit have ruined/damaged careers. This isn't just a columnist writing his opinions and then everything is all good and dandy. And I did not say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about the subject. Don't even try to pull a strawman. I responded to a post where the poster basically wrote Spades off because of "pros opinions". Not because he had his own analyis, evidence or anything else. But because "if we can't trust pros who can we trust". Well, in the face of naivete, they are the right ones to trust, they know how a GM player should be playing. Similarly, you look to experts in certain fields when doing cases. Psychologists, doctors, engineers, etc. are brought in to argue legal cases, because they have more background into the subject than any lawyer or judge. I would trust Pros' opinions as well because they have the knowledge to understand the movements in the game that most normal people would not be able to comprehend. They also know how an inappropriate accusation can harm one's career (since it could happen to them). | ||
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LaM
United States1321 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote: Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too. Then what is your point? You have virtually no argument if that missed the point lol. I guess you have to be trolling at this point. Please, just stop posting. If you need more evidence that you are wrong (besides everyone else with a brain telling you so...) than please watch this: http://replayfu.com/download/dHkGTr I hate feeding trolls, but on the off chance this one isn't... | ||
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:00 the p00n wrote: What moment in the replay exactly are you referring to and I shall address it. 09:50 on Cloud Kingdom. Or ~35 minutes in here http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912 | ||
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Tippecanoe
United States342 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote: Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too. I shall quote you: On June 05 2012 23:45 Pantythief wrote: Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that. | ||
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latan
740 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:01 Pantythief wrote: Congratulations, you COMPLETELY missed the point, deliberately, too. here, a better example: http://www.mediafire.com/?d90fruazkfy1s19 | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On June 06 2012 00:05 FairForever wrote: Well, in the face of naivete, they are the right ones to trust, they know how a GM player should be playing. Similarly, you look to experts in certain fields when doing cases. Psychologists, doctors, engineers, etc. are brought in to argue legal cases, because they have more background into the subject than any lawyer or judge. I would trust Pros' opinions as well because they have the knowledge to understand the movements in the game that most normal people would not be able to comprehend. They also know how an inappropriate accusation can harm one's career (since it could happen to them). Ok, fair enough. I admit when I think someone has a good point and you sir have a good point. I just can't help feeling this has been handled poorly. I just hate the fact an anonymous OP threw Spades under a bus and the mob took over from that point on. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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joeschmo
United States167 Posts
Yeah, I think it's just one of the best arguments. Nobody in their right mind (like above bronze), would waste a scan which has only 50% of landing on the opponent's fricking main at 5 minutes in the game, without waiting for the scouting SCV to at least confirm his spawning position. That's just retarded play. If you're not maphacking, that is... I've done it and seen masters players do it, it's because you think they have the watch towers & will kill the scv so you just throw a blind scan, it's just poor play, and with the cloud kingdom seige, i think that's poor play as well, maybe he fear'd after he unseiged he would stim and run in to attack knowing he played bio, or maybe it was a misclick, just another coincidence imo, the best argument i've seen is him never looking into the fog of war....but, looking into the fog of war is bad play, but NEVER looking into the fog of war is suspicious... | ||
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Josh111
United States239 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:56 benkei wrote: If he can´t look into the fog of war how is this possible? + Show Spoiler + http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/screenshot2012060516443.jpg/ From what i understand if you right click into fog of war with the hack it doesn't proc the screen lock. Might be wrong tho, good find tho either way! | ||
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Ophiophilius
Canada42 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:51 Pantythief wrote: I don't care about 2-3 people who disagrees with me, mate. I got proof, you don't. http://drop.sc/191945 here is proof showing that the camera view of the replay is the same as the player in the game. I just played this 1v1, and if you watch the first 2 minutes of the game, you see me sending my overlord close air on metal, via the minimap and the camera doesn't leave my mineral line, then when I see my opponent isn't there, I redirect my overlord to the top left via the minimap again, the camera doesn't leave my overlord, once a gain. and when I expand I send my scouting drone to the top right main via the minimap, and the camera doesn't leave my natural | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote: Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something. What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him. The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion. This is exactly the problem - people form their opinions from random 1 post count smurfs making threads like this, and then they email sponsors regarding these problems. The burden of proof in the real world is on the accuser, but here, as you said, it's been placed on Spades. And again, as you mentioned, it's incredibly hard to prove the absence of "star sense" or suspicious behaviour as people have started to define it in this thread. He did release his past 100 replays from the ladder, so what I'm guessing is that his team and his peers are going to form a judgement based on comparing the Lucifron replays to what is being shown in the ladder replays. There'll be a statement coming from the team I'm guessing in the next 2-3 days, so honestly a mod should lock this thread and wait for that statement. | ||
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