07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
This just is flat out wrong. Again. Stop asking multiple people for proof when you are completely, totally, and without fail wrong on everything you say about the camera function in replays.
You need to go make a game and move around the map. Try all the things you are saying. Then watch the replay. Seriously, stop asking people for proof when your proof is you making things up about hypothetical situations that you are wrong about.
The world isn't out to get you. The ten people repeating that you are wrong aren't part of a conspiracy. You are just wrong.
I don't care about 2-3 people who disagrees with me, mate. I got proof, you don't.
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger. Literally the wrongest thing I've ever read
On June 05 2012 23:48 Andr3 wrote: Why are you guys arguing who's right or wrong about camera movements, fuck that.
Re-watch the video of Axeltoss, if what Axeltoss says is true then the camera movement is bugged in replays. His second scan was centered off screen while his perspective was to the right of it. Again, if he didn't just scan on the edge of his screen while facing to the right of the 2nd scan then the camera function is somewhat bugged.
He could have scanned via the minimap, it's not definitive proof unless there's a vod of that game (is there?) that shows him scanning via click on the ground
So now you're saying that Axeltoss is lying? Exactly how much further are you willing to swim?
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger
I take it you're trolling. I just gave you a literal example on how the player camera works, as presented and explained by Axeltoss. He even makes my example very, very clear to everyone.
You are so utterly wrong, there's 10 people here explaining to you that you are but you just stampede over everything completely oblivious to facts.
Somebody needs to make a youtube video of the "siege, move almost nothing, re-siege without vision for no reason" moment on Cloud Kingdom and it should be mandatory viewing before anyone posts any more in this thread.
There is NO NEED to go into anything more than those really, REALLY obvious hacking moments like Cloud Kingdom. I don't care if the "magic scan" is explainable. There is enough damming evidence as it stands.
Let's review:
*7 games all containing really suspicious moves. *Spades playing completely different compared to his streamed sessions/released replays as far as map-orientation goes *Almost unheard of low-tier NA player almost beating top EU player in a showmatch that, while not sporting a monetary prize, is the one way Spades can get any sort of attention (which means it was a really important match for him). *Former hacker
OBVIOUSLY there is no way to 100% prove it, and there never will be, But beyond doubt he is hacking. Just watch the Cloud Kingdom moment, just please watch it. He's hacking. He's hacking trash and you need to stop defending him because he deserves no support or sympathy. It's over.
And to anyone saying the fact that he lost, or the fact that he didn't play perfectly proves he isn't hacking: Maphack doesn't magically make you good at the game, and obviously anyone resorting to using it is fucking awful to begin with so don't expect much. Honestly, Lucifron is so much better than Spades that I would bet on Lucifron every single time even if Spades was allowed maphack.
On June 05 2012 23:48 nkr wrote: I'm yet to see someone explain the scan on shakuras, when he hasn't scouted anywhere.
It could happen without hack. Why not? It could also happen that those Hellions on TDA escaped perfectly without hacking. It could also happen that in the game against Avilo he played super stupid and greedy and then did a money scan. It could also happen...
10% chance on that, 16% chance on that, 1% chance on that, 6% on that, and eventually you are as lucky as the guy that won 45 Million Euro on Euromillions.
Antiga Shipyard 6:15 - conventional e-bay timing, there is nothing weird about this no matter how much you want it to be 9:11 - the '9 sec camera block' is him doing things in that area. He puts guys on gas, right clicks an SCV on his CC for whatever reason, then notices the supply block and orders an scv (in the same screen) to build a supply depot. 10:45 - he just right-clicked the minimap. Notice the great inaccuracy on his actual right-click waypoint: http://i.imgur.com/foEZE.jpg which further suggests he just clicked the minimap
Entombed valley 2:14 - he is just queueing up the move-commands for his SCV by using the minimap. I thought everyone scouted like this? http://i.imgur.com/xEOFI.jpg 7:47 - http://i.imgur.com/EevJO.jpg not only that, but it was safe to do this as the other guy rushed a banshee which typically means their siege tech is delayed, and yes, lucifron's siege tech was at 60/80 13:42 - here, you are simply stating what would be the optimal reaction - moving your army to your natural immediately so he doesn't get to siege on the high ground. Spades simply doesn't do this until the scan hits his natural 30 seconds later, which triggers the 'oh God he could be doing this' reaction which should have been triggered when he saw the 2 marines on the minimap. This is just bad play, and there are many, many, many situations where he pays dearly for this type of bad play ultimately resulting in him losing the series. 14:10 - this movement of his army was triggered by the scan at 13:56, which triggers the 'oh shit'-reaction (see 13:42) 20:30 - normal scan
CatZ VOD CatZ is simply oblivious as to how the player camera actually works. Take for example the replay Avilo posted on Cloud Kingdom against Spades. He scans the area at 14:38 by using the minimap and then clicks the same spot on the minimap immediately after that. What most players do is click the minimap first and then drag their mouse from the minimap to the middle of the map to issue the scan command. His way is superior, albeit slightly less accurate (as you are using the minimap instead of the main map). This is backed up by the same evidence I supplied in the Antiga Shipyard game at 10:45: http://i.imgur.com/ohBkr.jpg
All the other games are roughly the same things as these 2 games. If someone really wants me to, I shall analyze those as well and provide evidence, but it's honestly more of the same. Spades did not hack. The 'camera blocks' are just him doing stuff in that area, which is perfectly verifiable.
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger
I take it you're trolling. I just gave you a literal example on how the player camera works, as presented and explained by Axeltoss. He even makes my example very, very clear to everyone.
You've demonstrated you have zero understanding of how SC2 replays work, why are you still in this thread? This is an obscene level of ignorance
He's busy being top 8 Master and GM last season, silly, he doesn't have time to open literally any replay.
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger
I take it you're trolling. I just gave you a literal example on how the player camera works, as presented and explained by Axeltoss. He even makes my example very, very clear to everyone.
You are so utterly wrong, there's 10 people here explaining to you that you are but you just stampede over everything completely oblivious to facts.
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote: Where there is smoke there is fire.
The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts.
This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots.
My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread.
His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse.
You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that.
Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds.
Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over).
It's fairly obvious that there's something going on.
I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility.
In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty."
I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here.
Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now.
If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades.
Past crimes are admitted as evidence in a court of law. Why should this be any different?
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
Go watch a replay! If you are sitting in your base macroing and moving units via hotkeys and minimap THE REPLAY WILL SHOW YOU LOOKING AT YOUR BASE.
It amazes me how people just instantly jump be hatewagon while the OP has a single post, and nothing more. He isn't even here for a whole week but people take his word for "fact". Innocent untill proven guilty.
On June 05 2012 23:53 the p00n wrote: Why Spades is not hacking
Antiga Shipyard 6:15 - conventional e-bay timing, there is nothing weird about this no matter how much you want it to be 9:11 - the '9 sec camera block' is him doing things in that area. He puts guys on gas, right clicks an SCV on his CC for whatever reason, then notices the supply block and orders an scv (in the same screen) to build a supply depot. 10:45 - he just right-clicked the minimap. Notice the great inaccuracy on his actual right-click waypoint: http://i.imgur.com/foEZE.jpg which further suggests he just clicked the minimap
Entombed valley 2:14 - he is just queueing up the move-commands for his SCV by using the minimap. I thought everyone scouted like this? http://i.imgur.com/xEOFI.jpg 7:47 - http://i.imgur.com/EevJO.jpg not only that, but it was safe to do this as the other guy rushed a banshee which typically means their siege tech is delayed, and yes, lucifron's siege tech was at 60/80 13:42 - here, you are simply stating what would be the optimal reaction - moving your army to your natural immediately so he doesn't get to siege on the high ground. Spades simply doesn't do this until the scan hits his natural 30 seconds later, which triggers the 'oh God he could be doing this' reaction which should have been triggered when he saw the 2 marines on the minimap. This is just bad play, and there are many, many, many situations where he pays dearly for this type of bad play ultimately resulting in him losing the series. 14:10 - this movement of his army was triggered by the scan at 13:56, which triggers the 'oh shit'-reaction (see 13:42) 20:30 - normal scan
CatZ VOD CatZ is simply oblivious as to how the player camera actually works. Take for example the replay Avilo posted on Cloud Kingdom against Spades. He scans the area at 14:38 by using the minimap and then clicks the same spot on the minimap immediately after that. What most players do is click the minimap first and then drag their mouse from the minimap to the middle of the map to issue the scan command. His way is superior, albeit slightly less accurate (as you are using the minimap instead of the main map). This is backed up by the same evidence I supplied in the Antiga Shipyard game at 10:45: http://i.imgur.com/ohBkr.jpg
All the other games are roughly the same things as these 2 games. If someone really wants me to, I shall analyze those as well and provide evidence, but it's honestly more of the same. Spades did not hack. The 'camera blocks' are just him doing stuff in that area, which is perfectly verifiable.
. Explain how he never looks at FoW dring showmatches but looks at it during ladder game.
The magic scan is 100% a legitimate argument for anyone who has been saying otherwise. The screen scrolling-to scan wasn't the only point of the magic scan argument, the magic scan showed that the centre of the scan was off the screen, which means he MUST have used the minimap to scan if he was playing legit. Now however improbable it is that he could go from screen scrolling to scanning perfectly like that on multiple occasions, it is still technically possible. BUT: the first problem was that he didn't use the same technique in vods and replays where he is not assumed to be using the hack, such as laddering. RTS players use habit and repetition of action to increase their apm and be more efficient, and in the games where he was not supposedly hacking, he did not use the minimap to scan. He either looked directly into the fog of war and scanned, or scrolled into the fog of war and scanned, both of which he never does in the vods and replays of him playing without the hack. Why would he change this standard RTS habit, in a show match or any other important match, and scan on the minimap, instead of scanning in the standard way, when lucifron's army was very close to his, and speed and efficiency is everything in order to prepare properly for the engagement? Even to someone who isn't a straight-up witch hunter (which I'm not, I didn't believe this when I first heard it) this seems implausible to the point of impossible. Also there was the fact that he didn't look at his scan after he actually did it. Now he COULD have only looked on the minimap, but in TvT you always want to know at what time your opponents tanks are sieging, and general tank spread and army positioning, which for every other player requires them to look at the opposing army on screen, so unless Spades is simply bad and did not care about the information he just got from the scan, this indicates that he did already have the information, linking to the slightly earlier screen-freeze over his army from the hack. This is just my opinion on the magic scan argument and why it is perfectly legitimate, loads of other evidence has been argued throughout the thread so draw your own conclusions from all that.
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger. Literally the wrongest thing I've ever read
On June 05 2012 23:48 Andr3 wrote: Why are you guys arguing who's right or wrong about camera movements, fuck that.
Re-watch the video of Axeltoss, if what Axeltoss says is true then the camera movement is bugged in replays. His second scan was centered off screen while his perspective was to the right of it. Again, if he didn't just scan on the edge of his screen while facing to the right of the 2nd scan then the camera function is somewhat bugged.
He could have scanned via the minimap, it's not definitive proof unless there's a vod of that game (is there?) that shows him scanning via click on the ground
So now you're saying that Axeltoss is lying? Exactly how much further are you willing to swim?
Someone go get the relationship between length of thread and 'how much of a douche you seem' graph from the MBC foreigner reporting thread.
Just go open up a replay dude, I don't know what your issue is
On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote: Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
But this is 100% wrong. It couldn't get wronger
I take it you're trolling. I just gave you a literal example on how the player camera works, as presented and explained by Axeltoss. He even makes my example very, very clear to everyone.
You've demonstrated you have zero understanding of how SC2 replays work, why are you still in this thread? This is an obscene level of ignorance
He's busy being top 8 Master and GM last season, silly, he doesn't have time to open literally any replay.
EPT
