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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point.
what are you talking about? Axel's video clearly shows his *camera movement* to the left where he places the scan and back to his army after that. including a full screen view of fog of war. both is missing in the magic scan-occurrences in Spades' replays.
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On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.
What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.
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On June 05 2012 23:23 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades. They watched the replays like 3 times before doing the VOD. Of course they had already come to conclusions. I'm not sure how you can defend Spades after that analysis.
The unbelievable bias towards wanting to find him guilty. I'm watching it right now and they are harping about a scan on Tal'Darim even though Spades clearly saw several units at two different points moving towards the 7 o'clock above his main and had just defended a push at his third.
Also MLG Shakuras is forced cross spawns right? So Spades shouldn't need to scout. They are also critiquing his builds which spades claimed were designed based off of Luifron's games v Thorzain.
I'm not impressed when, does it get better? Why isn't "Spades is bad at the game" the conclusion we are jumping to? While Day[9] is criticized for giving players too much credit when they do random shit by players like Cloud, Spades is supposed to account for every single action over the course of a showmatch vs Lucifron?
The "innocent until proven guilty" concept ha been thrown out of the damn window in this thread. I see a lot of confirmation bias in this video but will keep watching.
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On June 05 2012 23:34 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:30 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:21 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:20 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy" Isn't that your argument? "He's not hacking because he didn't perform an incredibly clearly fishy action in this particular circumstance" is that not the basis of this argument about that one attack in the game? Who shouldn't be talking about IQ again? On June 05 2012 23:21 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there. So he wouldn't need a hack to blindly counter that attack, but he doesn't hack because he didn't blindly counter that attack This defense is getting less and less logical as time progresses ?Seems pretty logically flawless.The fact that he didn't defend his third should be attributed to simply bad play, point being, anyone with a hack would've seen a huge blob and defended it properly (and no one should call it fishy because defending your only source of income should be an obvious move), essentially, not doing it means not hacking, doing it doesn't mean anything in that particular instance. Apparently it's a really obvious attack so he could justifiably defend it without being called a hacker but you are using it as proof that he isn't hacking. That makes absolutely no sense at all. So in an alternate reality where he did defend it, you would be here saying that he just did the obvious thing and that it's not proof. How can you turn around and claim that it's evidence that he doesn't hack. Are you trying to make my brain explode with your self contradictions because we're seriously getting there. This whole line of reasoning makes no sense, especially when you consider that no one is using that attack as proof of him hacking. Meanwhile you're simultaneously showing how it is proof of both hacks and the absence of hacks. This is some Wookies on Endor type shit.
Not the proof of hacks, but the absence of it, I'm sure you are pretty much the only one failing to grasp the logic behind it really.
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If camera didnt follow the camera itself then in the reps where he is not hacking (allegedly) there would not be a single FoW look as long as he did not issue an action there, which is not true. In the reps that are not from LucifroN's series, the replay itself shows moments where he looks at the FoW like any normal player would do.
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either one of two things:
1) He's innocent, in which case this has been an unbelievable nightmare for him. A lot of bitterness and I-told-you-so's in the future. People will become very jaded about spades anyway and unless he's something really special he will probably find it be better to drop out of the scene.
2) He's guilty, which would mean he's lying and lying even as he is being dragged down. If this is true it reminds me of one of those little pathological liars that are so deluded that they just keep going and going because they don't actually know how pathetic they look
it doesn't look good either way
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On June 05 2012 23:39 VanGooL wrote:
If camera didnt follow the camera itself then in the reps where he is not hacking (allegedly) there would not be a single FoW look as long as he did not issue an action there, which is not true. In the reps that are not from LucifroN's series, the replay itself shows moments where he looks at the FoW like any normal player would do.
No it doesn't. Only when he is issuing a command.
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On June 05 2012 23:38 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:34 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:30 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:21 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:20 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy" Isn't that your argument? "He's not hacking because he didn't perform an incredibly clearly fishy action in this particular circumstance" is that not the basis of this argument about that one attack in the game? Who shouldn't be talking about IQ again? On June 05 2012 23:21 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there. So he wouldn't need a hack to blindly counter that attack, but he doesn't hack because he didn't blindly counter that attack This defense is getting less and less logical as time progresses ?Seems pretty logically flawless.The fact that he didn't defend his third should be attributed to simply bad play, point being, anyone with a hack would've seen a huge blob and defended it properly (and no one should call it fishy because defending your only source of income should be an obvious move), essentially, not doing it means not hacking, doing it doesn't mean anything in that particular instance. Apparently it's a really obvious attack so he could justifiably defend it without being called a hacker but you are using it as proof that he isn't hacking. That makes absolutely no sense at all. So in an alternate reality where he did defend it, you would be here saying that he just did the obvious thing and that it's not proof. How can you turn around and claim that it's evidence that he doesn't hack. Are you trying to make my brain explode with your self contradictions because we're seriously getting there. This whole line of reasoning makes no sense, especially when you consider that no one is using that attack as proof of him hacking. Meanwhile you're simultaneously showing how it is proof of both hacks and the absence of hacks. This is some Wookies on Endor type shit. Not the proof of hacks, but the absence of it, I'm sure you are pretty much the only one failing to grasp the logic behind it really.
You have literally illustrated a scenario where someone could both defend and ignore that attack while either hacking or not hacking
You've proven that that attack means nothing in the ultimate determination of whether Spades cheats. That is a complete and utter contradiction when you are using it as proof that he does not cheat in any games.
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On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.
Already happened. One of the things they came up is that in those games Spades regularly (over 10 times) checks the fog of war. While in the series against Lucifron it happened almost never.
The other thing is that some people proving that Spades is innocent by saying that there is nothing that indicates MH in the replays that Spades himself posted, are kinda saying that Spades doesn't play blind and risky. While he was doing that against Lucifron and Avilo. But that argument is somewhat situational.
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On June 05 2012 23:36 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:33 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point. That's fine. Saying no and posting one youtube video over and over doesn't make you right. The way you described the camera function is completely incorrect and the video you posted has little relevance to what you were saying besides the fact that both of you seem to think that the commonly held notion of how the camera works is wrong. I wonder if you have ever played a game and watched your replay the way you are talking. If you have, you should know the camera does follow your movements around the map, not your actions as you seem to believe. That doesn't even make sense. People frequently select buildings and produce units with hotkeys while looking elsewhere, and that is what the replay shows. Because the camera function follows your movement. I won't continue to argue this because you are blatantly wrong and it should be clear to everyone reading that you are, therefore no need to clog up the thread. Brother, this video proves you wrong. It's simple as that. This is how the player camera function works, get over it. I'm 100% correct, I have no idea why you're saying that this is not how the camera function works, because this is how it works. Go play a game on the ladder, then watch the replay right after and tell me the player camera records your view of the game 100% accurately and then make a video about it to prove me wrong. As of now, I've proven you wrong and you have no valid argument against it.
I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the replay camera, but the way you described the camera as it following your actions, like scanning on the map, is wrong.
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On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:23 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant. No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news. Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768
I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting.
What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions"
Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay.
Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
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I have no idea why standard people are using to judge hacks here. It's like no matter what action Spades takes, it's being used as an argument for him hacking. Oh, he took too much damage? It was intentionally throwing. Oh, he didn't take any damage? Hacking. Like wtf. There's nothing scientific about this. In order for any analysis (Catz's, or anyone's) to be considered valid, there needs to be an established set of actions that are innocent and an established set that are basically guilty. In Catz's stream, there were numerous instances of blatant hypocrisy, misunderstanding of the camera function, and so on, that make it impossible to view the stream as anything more than someone's uninformed opinion i.e. not a scientific demonstration.
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On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point.
That youtube video does NOT prove your point. Honestly i have watched the video a few times and read your post a few times to try and understand and i still cant figure out. The youtube video does not prove that the replay function doesn't show movement and from what i understand (might be wrong) the replay function DOES show movement not just actions.
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On June 05 2012 23:27 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:26 BeeNu wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) Um... are you trolling bro wtf? YOU apparently do not know how the camera function works. Axeltoss proving my point --> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Now stop talking about the replay function if you don't know how the player camera function works. Thank you.
You really need to stop talking because you are incorrect. Sc2 replays do record camera movements. Since you kept sticking your foot in your mouth, I tested it. I started a sc2 game, did not do any actions and just scrolled my camera around. Guess what, the replay shows my camera moving around! Don't tell people that they don't know how replay function works when you clearly don't.
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On June 05 2012 23:41 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:36 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:33 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point. That's fine. Saying no and posting one youtube video over and over doesn't make you right. The way you described the camera function is completely incorrect and the video you posted has little relevance to what you were saying besides the fact that both of you seem to think that the commonly held notion of how the camera works is wrong. I wonder if you have ever played a game and watched your replay the way you are talking. If you have, you should know the camera does follow your movements around the map, not your actions as you seem to believe. That doesn't even make sense. People frequently select buildings and produce units with hotkeys while looking elsewhere, and that is what the replay shows. Because the camera function follows your movement. I won't continue to argue this because you are blatantly wrong and it should be clear to everyone reading that you are, therefore no need to clog up the thread. Brother, this video proves you wrong. It's simple as that. This is how the player camera function works, get over it. I'm 100% correct, I have no idea why you're saying that this is not how the camera function works, because this is how it works. Go play a game on the ladder, then watch the replay right after and tell me the player camera records your view of the game 100% accurately and then make a video about it to prove me wrong. As of now, I've proven you wrong and you have no valid argument against it. I'm not commenting on the accuracy of the replay camera, but the way you described the camera as it following your actions, like scanning on the map, is wrong.
Yeah I can't believe that guy is still going strong and asking us to check by ourselves, when he himself apparently never watched a replay in his life :D
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On June 05 2012 23:42 Josh111 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point. That youtube video does NOT prove your point. Honestly i have watched the video a few times and read your post a few times to try and understand and i still cant figure out. The youtube video does not prove that the replay function doesn't show movement and from what i understand (might be wrong) the replay function DOES show movement not just actions.
Exactly lol. This guys whole argument is completely invalid and his only "evidence" is a youtube video that doesn't back him up at all (shows movement, NOT action - exactly what he says the camera doesn't do). I kinda have given up talking to him though, seems very condescending and incredibly misinformed about basic functionality of replays.
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On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team. What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust.
I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust.
This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.
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On June 05 2012 23:41 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:23 ZenithM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant. No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news. Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768 I won't come back apologizing because I obviously checked myself before posting. What you could maybe have said is that it's not 100% perfect recording, but you were acting like the camera info is lost forever in the replay, which it's not. It even records zooming bro. SC2gears displays these "Move screen x=X, y=Y" as "Inactions" Btw, I don't believe either the magic scan argument. Everybody knows that with Blizzard's annoying smoothening of camera view, you can't reliably tell that a player was really looking at what is apparently displaying on the replay. Just wanted to "educate" you (what a ridiculous thing to say btw when you don't even know what replays really contain) a bit. I won't ask you to apologize either, how kind of me.
So are you going to keep saying I'm wrong or are you going to present factual proof that can back up your claims? Player camera does not record the camera view from the game, it records the players actions and fog of war. If I move units to x spot, the player camera will look at the selected units and then the destination. In reality, I could be looking at my base, selecting a hotkey and then use the minimap to move my units -- eitherway, the player camera won't show that.
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On June 05 2012 23:45 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:37 Mobsy wrote:On June 05 2012 23:35 i)awn wrote:
I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team. What CatZ and Co. Did was fine.. they compared his hacking games to a few of his non-hacking games and told us what made them think he hacks.. afterwards they all were in agreement that he was, in fact, hacking in the showmatch. Does that make it absolute? No. Does it mean he probably was yes? If you can't trust the pros opinions on a subject like this I don't know who we can trust. I'm so glad the justice system doesn't rely on trust. This thread has made me appreciate "innocent until proven guilty" even more.
though I think he probably did hack, I couldn't agree more with this statement
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On June 05 2012 23:30 Mobsy wrote:
Are you really going to disagree with the pros? I mean most of you here aren't even masters yet you disagree with top foreigner players on their honest opinions of this. It's not like they have an agenda against him or anything.
Especially since everything Spades has done to reply to this has been really shady.. attributing every fishy move to luck.. even though all this "Luck" happened within 3 hours of playing. He hacks, until he can prove otherwise, and that's all there is to it.
Their opinions and analyses are not automatically more informed on this matter. They're good at playing the game, not deducing if someone is hacking or not. They can say with more accuracy, "oh, most good terrans would have done this differently", pointing out the right moves and wrong moves, but that in itself is not even evidence of him hacking. Many people presume to read his mind, but the truth is that no one can.
There are coincidences, yes, but they only increase the possibility of him being a hacker, instead of proving beyond all doubt that he is one. Before you publicly "try" someone for a crime in TL, you had better be sure that there is not even a shadow of a doubt as to his guilt. What some pros are doing now is nothing but open speculation, which seems highly unprofessional to me.
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EPT
