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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 23:07 MaryJoana wrote:
A lot of people in this thread need to shut up about "ololol he clearly hacked" without going into arguments from the other side. There's some arguments for him hacking, and rebuttals from others that relativize those. If you have nothing to add but your one-sentence opinion of "clearly hacks" then plase save your breath. I don't see myself in any position to judge it. I see some fishiness, but that could be because I look at the replays trying to see the hacks. I am biased. If you open a thread where someone is accused of hacking, and then look at replays where someone already says the other person hacks, you WILL be biased, unless you know the player in person. So please, if you have no affiliation to the pro-scene and don't know the guy, just back off.
Explain me the FOW issue please, explain me that incredible game sense, explain me how he hacked in bw, explain how the ladder reps looks so different, explain me why team mates and pro's are saying that is very probably that he cheated, explain me why he poorly defend himself also explain how he can take 3 games playing with poorly mechanichs,etc.... This isn't looking good for him, maybe he is not officialy guilty but he is 99% guilty.
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Ok, I'm pretty sure someone on catZ stream stated something very important
"If your a good hacker, you wouldnt make it obvious"
so please keep that in mind before posting anything not thought out 
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On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1.
Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now.
If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades.
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On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it.
So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47?
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On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47?
You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy"
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I have watched all the replays (including avilo's), read through the topic and will provide conclusive evidence of Spades' innocence (accompanied with screenshots and solid logical explanations) in a bit. Give me a bit to write it all up. Spades is not hacking.
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On June 05 2012 23:18 SCII-ALI wrote:Ok, I'm pretty sure someone on catZ stream stated something very important "If your a good hacker, you wouldnt make it obvious" so please keep that in mind before posting anything not thought out
"Good hacker"... yeah let's just play the ifs and buts game all day long!
That's a useless argument.
Btw, he was caught before, so does he fit the role of a "good hacker"?
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On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47?
Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there.
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On June 05 2012 23:20 the p00n wrote:
I have watched all the replays (including avilo's), read through the topic and will provide conclusive evidence of Spades' innocence (accompanied with screenshots and solid logical explanations) in a bit. Give me a bit to write it all up. Spades is not hacking.
I already have myself, man, but people don't care. Just let the thread die.
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On June 05 2012 23:20 the p00n wrote:
I have watched all the replays (including avilo's), read through the topic and will provide conclusive evidence of Spades' innocence (accompanied with screenshots and solid logical explanations) in a bit. Give me a bit to write it all up. Spades is not hacking.
Before wasting your time, watch the Cats vod, evidence is pretty strong
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On June 05 2012 23:20 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy"
Isn't that your argument?
"He's not hacking because he didn't perform an incredibly clearly fishy action in this particular circumstance"
is that not the basis of this argument about that one attack in the game? Who shouldn't be talking about IQ again?
On June 05 2012 23:21 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there.
So he wouldn't need a hack to blindly counter that attack, but he doesn't hack because he didn't blindly counter that attack
This defense is getting less and less logical as time progresses
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On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate.
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On June 05 2012 23:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious Spades hacks. Care to provide your reasoning, and your qualifications?
A couple good people already did that. If you don't yet saw one, you must be blind.
He just posted his conclusion after reading all these "reasonings".
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On June 05 2012 23:21 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:20 the p00n wrote:
I have watched all the replays (including avilo's), read through the topic and will provide conclusive evidence of Spades' innocence (accompanied with screenshots and solid logical explanations) in a bit. Give me a bit to write it all up. Spades is not hacking. Before wasting your time, watch the Cats vod, evidence is pretty strong
CatZ main argument is that the screen moves slower than actions are being made, I.e, scans, then camera moves. CatZ, like many of you, doesn't know how the camera function in a replay works. Bottomline is, CatZ is wrong.
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On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
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On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades.
They watched the replays like 3 times before doing the VOD. Of course they had already come to conclusions. I'm not sure how you can defend Spades after that analysis.
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On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb.
Sometimes people let things happen to make it look like they aren't hacking. In the same game, you can't have a reasonable answer for someone to scan where he did to see not only where LucifroN is, but also the third command center..........especially when his SCV hasn't even SCOUTED the bottom position. No one, even in bronze, does trash like that.
I don't know how people can still debate this. Sure, some of it could be chalked up to luck, but to have luck on your time literally dozens of times in a game.....highly implausible. Especially when you look at his "non-hacked games" there is a very clear and different pattern of play than when you look at the games from theognis and LucifronN.
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On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate.
No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works.
Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not)
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On June 05 2012 23:23 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
No it doesn't, go check for yourself and come back apologizing. This isn't news.
Edit: decided to counter that uneducated "argument" of yours by posting a video of Axeltoss proving my point.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768
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On June 05 2012 23:23 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Replays do record camera movement. Your counter-argument is 100% irrelevant.
Not that clear cut if you believe this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768
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EPT
