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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on.
I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility.
In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty."
I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here.
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The Catz vod is very damning. Every game has repeated incidents where spades has extremely poor gameplay in terms of his current game knowledge and _extremely_ poor map knowledge. There is no doubt at all anymore in my opinion.
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He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb.
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I just have a hard time understanding how he can look so little into the Fog of War. That was the singularly most "out of the normal" evidence for me. Is it conclusive - maybe/maybe not. But it was so out of character from his stream VoDs and players simply don't change their modus operandi on a whim, you know? I have a ton of pro replays (granted not Terran) and everyone of them spends time in the fog, you know? Doesn't that seem weird?
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On June 05 2012 23:03 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:39 SCII-ALI wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. I like how this comment of all, is being ignored, eventho it should not. Seems like pretty good evidence to me. Good find. I'd say this is definite evidence towards the existence of a camera lock, which would certainly come with a hack. And I think if a selection box appears even for a split second before SCVs are selected for someone who literally spams SCV selection then Spades is probably hacking.
This evidence has been corrected and shown to not be reliable. I and another poster pointed this out just a few posts up. Read more of the thread please.
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On June 05 2012 23:04 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious Spades hacks. Care to provide your reasoning, and your qualifications?
I love the word "qualifications". Nobody has qualifications to detect a hacker. There is no certificate or training to do so.
The best you can have is someone who is an "expert" e.g. a map hack programmer. Even then it's subjective.
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Are there people who actually defend spades after all the analysis? I'm usually not very quick on judgement in situations like this, but after having watched the analysis of catz, tt1 etc. how can you still defend him? I really dont know.
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Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
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On June 05 2012 23:04 taintmachine wrote:
has the op posted once since making this thread? on top of clearly being a smurf, he doesn't bother sticking around even after protecting himself with a new nick?
Maybe he's posting in this thread with his main account
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On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb.
Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!"
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On June 05 2012 23:09 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:04 Chargelot wrote:On June 05 2012 23:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious Spades hacks. Care to provide your reasoning, and your qualifications? I love the word "qualifications". Nobody has qualifications to detect a hacker. There is no certificate or training to do so. The best you can have is someone who is an "expert" e.g. a map hack programmer. Even then it's subjective.
Or, say, someone who had coded, and actively maintains, Warden. If you don't meet that qualification, and you weren't standing behind him while it happened, and he doesn't stream himself doing it, any claim that he does it is subjective and baseless.
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It's funny, because they're criticizing him for moving to respond to things he sees very clearly on his minimap, and when he sees the tank positioning of his opponent he can guess that he wants to cover the top angle -- why would you cover and push the top? ARGH. X_X
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On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works.
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On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here.
Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1.
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On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
There was a YouTube video posted of someone trying (someone successfully) to replicate the replay behaviour without hacks.
Should be pretty quick to scan through the thread to find it and see if it's convincing for you.
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On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence.
It is doable, you could try doing it yourself, the problem with these maphack hunts is that people don't actually know what they are talking about, in fact, I am sure a lot of you would believe Catz if he presented enough "evidence" that the earth is flat.
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On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!"
No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions"
Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks.
It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary
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On June 05 2012 23:11 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:09 InMotion wrote:On June 05 2012 23:04 Chargelot wrote:On June 05 2012 23:03 FreshVegetables wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious Spades hacks. Care to provide your reasoning, and your qualifications? I love the word "qualifications". Nobody has qualifications to detect a hacker. There is no certificate or training to do so. The best you can have is someone who is an "expert" e.g. a map hack programmer. Even then it's subjective. Or, say, someone who had coded, and actively maintains, Warden. If you don't meet that qualification, and you weren't standing behind him while it happened, and he doesn't stream himself doing it, any claim that he does it is subjective and baseless.
Subjective maybe, but not baseless.
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On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary
Eitherway, the argument is uneducated.
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On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary
Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it.
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EPT
