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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades.
To be fair, though, there is no evidence that they thought he was a hacker in SC2 before they saw the VODs themselves for the first time. People that watched that live show bemoan that they "already had their minds made up" when they looked at the replays, but of course they did. It was not the first time they looked at the replays. There's no evidence that the first time they looked at the replays that they were looking at them through tinted glasses. It's just that by the time they felt compelled to share it with the community, they knew what they believed and they knew what they wanted everyone else to know.
If they truly believe that they hacked and they believe, like many pros do, that hacking should be incredibly harshly punished, then their actions are perfectly understandable. To them, they have the smoking gun and they want to make sure that it is known. It's precisely what others have said with the "let third party pros decide if there was cheating going on instead of the general public". That's what these guys were: pro players that felt there was cheating going on here.
Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something.
What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him.
The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion.
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On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not)
Um... are you trolling bro wtf? YOU apparently do not know how the camera function works.
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On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades. To be fair, though, there is no evidence that they thought he was a hacker in SC2 before they saw the VODs themselves for the first time. People that watched that live show bemoan that they "already had their minds made up" when they looked at the replays, but of course they did. It was not the first time they looked at the replays. There's no evidence that the first time they looked at the replays that they were looking at them through tinted glasses. It's just that by the time they felt compelled to share it with the community, they knew what they believed and they knew what they wanted everyone else to know. If they truly believe that they hacked and they believe, like many pros do, that hacking should be incredibly harshly punished, then their actions are perfectly understandable. To them, they have the smoking gun and they want to make sure that it is known. It's precisely what others have said with the "let third party pros decide if there was cheating going on instead of the general public". That's what these guys were: pro players that felt there was cheating going on here. Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something. What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him. The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion.
Wall of text.
User was warned for this post
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On June 05 2012 23:26 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) Um... are you trolling bro wtf? YOU apparently do not know how the camera function works.
Axeltoss proving my point --> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768
Now stop talking about the replay function if you don't know how the player camera function works. Thank you.
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On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not)
That's wrong.
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On June 05 2012 23:26 InMotion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:26 Takkara wrote:On June 05 2012 23:18 HyperionDreamer wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 -ForeverAlone- wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 23:07 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:54 oxxo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 22:49 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 22:35 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On June 05 2012 22:26 SkelA wrote:
Where there is smoke there is fire. The problem with this attitude is that people can take advantage of it by blowing smoke, knowing that you'll jump to the conclusion that there's a fire without bothering to take a reasoned look at the facts. This thread bothers me a lot. Like I said many many pages ago, very few people in the community have the knowledge required to actually come to a meaningful conclusion based on an analysis of the replays being discussed here. The vast majority of people in this thread are too ignorant to justify the conclusions they're posting as if they were incontrivertible fact, and most of them are obviously not even bothering to look at the replays before joining the mob. Those few people who are knowledgable on the subject are split as to their conclusions, and I'm sure more of them will be taking their time to produce a meaningful analysis of the replays to share with the community in the coming days. Anyone at this point who is not an expert on TvT gameplay, hacks, or replay analysis should be giving those people a few days to take a look at this instead of posting in this thread. The rest of you are making this community look like a bunch of trigger-happy idiots. My thoughts exactly. It's a classic case of the Reddit pitchfork mob mentality. I watched the replays, I watched the cast, and even though I'm a high master zerg I still can't tell if he's hacking, even after reading all the posts in this thread. His team alone should be dealing with this, and this thread should be closed. I'll guarantee you that there are people who've already emailed or called sponsors about this, the same way they did with the Orb thing, which has the unfortunate effect of destroying the credibility (and thus career) of those involved. And that's simply not the correct way to deal with this. There's a reason our justice system operates upon the assumption that the accused are innocent until proven guilty by careful examination of the evidence, and not a mob holding torches and pitchforks outside the courthouse. You don't play T though. His movements make absolutely no sense at that level of play unless he has map vision. For example, leading with tanks into ramps and XelNagas with no scouting is not something you do. Any experienced T player knows that. Then there's his screen locks. 9:11 Antiga, still haven't heard how he can possibly get 4 SCVs ('onscreen') into gas and get supply blocked while 'macroing' for 9 seconds. Then there's the fact that the replays in question and the replays he releases are completely different in terms of camera movement and playstyle (no more super super questionable moves over and over). It's fairly obvious that there's something going on. I've played it on and off before I switched to zerg exclusively, but I'm not going to pretend that I have even the slightest bit of T knowledge above diamond level. Regardless of what I've done in sc2, its fairly clear to me that very few (read: nobody) people in this thread have the actual game knowledge and insight to go over a replay and find "proof" that an player is map hacking. Spades has specifically posted here and denied that he has hacked, he has posted his last 100 ladder games for comparison to the LucifroN replays, so why has nobody run that comparison yet? Let his team (and the people they choose to consult in their investigation) deal with this, it's not our responsibility. In addition, multiple pros (Nerchio being the most vocal) have posted and defended Spades, saying that the evidence in the OP and the clarifications provided by Quantic Illusion don't amount to proof that he is map hacking. If this was a case on trial, the people prosecuting would be asked to provide proof beyond any reasonable doubt, which is defined as: "This means that the proposition being presented by the prosecution must be proven to the extent that there could be no "reasonable doubt" in the mind of a "reasonable person" that the defendant is guilty. There can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty." I think any reasonable person would have quite a bit of doubt that actual map hacks are being used here. Keep in mind that he actually lost this showmatch, while considering that other professional players have watched these replays and expressed that the evidence provided by the prosecution does not incontrovertibly point to hacking, and we've arrived at a lot of reasonable doubts here. Uhh yeah http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/uliy0/judge_rootcatz_verdict_guilty_spades_is_a_hacker/ CatZ & Co already did all you describe in part 1. Seen that VOD. Despite raising some good points and looking at the replays and breaking them down, his "judging" was absurdly biased. Even before they began looking at the replays, they started the cast talking about how spades used to hack and how he's a hacker now. If they're going to actually claim to be an unbiased panel of arbiters, then they should have brought a selection of people here that aren't already convinced of their opinions about Spades. To be fair, though, there is no evidence that they thought he was a hacker in SC2 before they saw the VODs themselves for the first time. People that watched that live show bemoan that they "already had their minds made up" when they looked at the replays, but of course they did. It was not the first time they looked at the replays. There's no evidence that the first time they looked at the replays that they were looking at them through tinted glasses. It's just that by the time they felt compelled to share it with the community, they knew what they believed and they knew what they wanted everyone else to know. If they truly believe that they hacked and they believe, like many pros do, that hacking should be incredibly harshly punished, then their actions are perfectly understandable. To them, they have the smoking gun and they want to make sure that it is known. It's precisely what others have said with the "let third party pros decide if there was cheating going on instead of the general public". That's what these guys were: pro players that felt there was cheating going on here. Even if WW comes out and says that their pros concluded there was no cheating, then people will just find other pros that say there was cheating. It's no-win for Spades. He'll never be able to appeal to an authority high enough to overrule the people on the other side of the argument. It's an inversion of the traditional burden of proof. In this case, Spades is somehow being asked to prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he did not hack. It's very hard to prove the absence of something. What's ironic is that if, in the replays he released, the 1st person camera does not behave like during the showmatch, that's actually worse for him. Many people are saying that if it shows a lot of this "fishy" behavior that it would be proof of him hacking, when more likely it is proof that this is more normal play for him. The only real proof that Spades could produce at this point is to release a replay that exhibits these odd behaviors AND a FPVOD of him playing that game on his stream. There would be no real way to argue around that type of proof. Unfortunately, it does not appear that he has that type of proof, so things are stuck in the court of public opinion. Wall of text.
lol
User was warned for this post
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How anyone can even debate that he's not hacking after that scan on shakuras; I don't know, and probably never will
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On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong.
As posted 4 times already, no.
-- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768
Axeltoss proving my point.
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On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47?
People should also take into account that a MHer turns his hack off and on.
Some pros have troubles getting through the 9-18 minute mark in a game.
-->Download a MH and use it only from minute 9 to 18.
-->Because they have good early and endgame mechanics, they turn from a decent pro player to a top notch pro player.
I am not saying this happened in this case. But maphack can't be disproved with 3 times getting caught off guard. Same as it wont get proven by doing miracle scans/army movement 3 times.
Take it as a whole guys. The whole Bo7. And remember that each week somebody wins the lottery.
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On June 05 2012 23:21 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:20 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy" Isn't that your argument? "He's not hacking because he didn't perform an incredibly clearly fishy action in this particular circumstance" is that not the basis of this argument about that one attack in the game? Who shouldn't be talking about IQ again? Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:21 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there. So he wouldn't need a hack to blindly counter that attack, but he doesn't hack because he didn't blindly counter that attack This defense is getting less and less logical as time progresses
?Seems pretty logically flawless.The fact that he didn't defend his third should be attributed to simply bad play, point being, anyone with a hack would've seen a huge blob and defended it properly (and no one should call it fishy because defending your only source of income should be an obvious move), essentially, not doing it means not hacking, doing it doesn't mean anything in that particular instance.
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On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not)
Do you have a VOD to explain/demonstrate this? I don't this this exonerates Spades, but it's very interesting nonetheless. I've never noticed this watching hundreds of replays in FPV.
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If the majority of pros think he is hacking, he does terrible on LAN, hacked in BW, old teammate says he stream cheated back in the old gaming house, and he has some of the most suspicious/fishy play of a top GM player any of us have ever seen. How can we not say he is hacking until proved otherwise? Do we need to go to his house and monitor him 24/7? Why hasn't QXC or Darkforce been called out? Why hasn't Ostojiy been called out? These players don't perform as well on LAN as they do online.. yet they don't get called out? It's because they don't play suspiciously.. It's like asking Kasparov, Fischer, Karpov, and Spassky to review an online chess tournament finale and see if he is cheating, and 4/4 say it looks like he most likely hacks.. Are you really going to disagree with the pros? I mean most of you here aren't even masters yet you disagree with top foreigner players on their honest opinions of this. It's not like they have an agenda against him or anything.
Especially since everything Spades has done to reply to this has been really shady.. attributing every fishy move to luck.. even though all this "Luck" happened within 3 hours of playing. He hacks, until he can prove otherwise, and that's all there is to it.
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That scan on Antiga was definitely fishy, but I'll give Spades the benefit of the doubt on that, maybe his hand slipped, who knows.
BUT
That game on entombed vs Lucifron, the tank positioning and impeccable "star sense" is just about enough to make me convinced he was hacking, at least during his showmatch. ;\
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Whether or not all of these claims are true, the saddest part of this whole thing is Blizzard's seemingly laissez-faire attitude towards this hacking issue. This is harmful for our community either way because:
A) If he is innocent then we have potentially ruined his career for no reason other than paranoia. If Blizzard gave a fuck at all we could have definitive ways of detecting hackers and these sort of community witch hunts (which have existed since BW, once again Blizzard didn't care there) would go away. Sponsers would certainly be at ease if these things ceased to exist, but because Blizzard hasn't taken ANY sincere action we are left to our own devices.
or B) If he is guilty then so many online tournament results begin to be questioned for who knows how far back. Professional players at anything but the highest tiers could have built their entire careers off of something that shouldn't be possible in the year 2012 with a company like Blizzard at the helm. Seriously, having played quite a bit of Dota2 recently my respect for Valve has grown as they are a company that actually cares about the gamer and Esports. Blizzard has half-assed themselves for the entire release of SC2. We built this, not them.
You can't trust people to be straight up when money/a career is on the line in such a harsh and volatile environment. If the means for hacking exist, someone will hack. It's that simple. It's like saying a lock keeps "an honest man honest" in a sense.
tldr: Blizzard's fault for all of this one way or another, get on the ball fellas.
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On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point.
That's fine. Saying no and posting one youtube video over and over doesn't make you right. The way you described the camera function is completely incorrect and the video you posted has little relevance to what you were saying besides the fact that both of you seem to think that the commonly held notion of how the camera works is wrong.
I wonder if you have ever played a game and watched your replay the way you are talking. If you have, you should know the camera does follow your movements around the map, not your actions as you seem to believe. That doesn't even make sense. People frequently select buildings and produce units with hotkeys while looking elsewhere, and that is what the replay shows. Because the camera function follows your movement.
I won't continue to argue this because you are blatantly wrong and it should be clear to everyone reading that you are, therefore no need to clog up the thread.
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On June 05 2012 23:32 Fake)Plants wrote:
Whether or not all of these claims are true, the saddest part of this whole thing is Blizzard's seemingly laissez-faire attitude towards this hacking issue. This is harmful for our community because:
A) If he is innocent then we have potentially ruined his career for no reason other than paranoia. If Blizzard gave a fuck at all we could have definitive ways of detecting hackers and these sort of community witch hunts (which have existed since BW, once again Blizzard didn't care there) would go away. Sponsers would certainly be at ease if these things ceased to exist, but because Blizzard hasn't taken ANY sincere action we are left to our own devices.
or B) If he is guilty then so many online tournament results begin to be questioned for who knows how far back. Professional players at any tier could have built their entire careers off of something that shouldn't be possible in the year 2012 with a company like Blizzard at the helm. Seriously, having played quite a bit of Dota2 recently my respect for Valve has grown as they are a company that actually cares about the gamer and Esports. Blizzard has half-assed themselves for the entire release of SC2. We built this, not them.
You can't trust people to be straight up when money/a career is on the line in such a harsh and volatile environment. If the means for hacking exist, someone will hack. It's that simple. It's like saying a lock keeps "an honest man honest" in a sense.
tldr: Blizzard's fault for all of this one way or another, get on the ball fellas.
And? Streams should have delay and if you hack know that you WILL be caught.. most hackers are fucking terrible anyways and any pro will usually stop them. Just like what happened to Spades.
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It always baffles me when online tournaments (for money) say they have little to no delay on their stream or its only like 30 seconds or something. Like how naive can you fucking be? If there is no, or only a short delay, a lot of assholes are going to stream cheat. Watching a 1 minute or something delayed stream is still extremely gamebreaking for a pro player, even a minute behind you can see bulids/tech switches before they are usually revealed, hidden expansions and so on, and you don't even have to watch it persay just fucking listen to the casters telling you everything thats happening.
The risk vs reward is simply far too favorable, theres little to no chance they will get caught and they can make a lot of money. It takes a honorable person not to take that opportunity, and unfortunately not all gamers are even close to honorable. Stream delays need to be increased, it's about time people stop being naive and realize cheating is pretty big in the SC2 scene and it's not just hacking.
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On June 05 2012 23:30 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:21 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:20 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? You really shouldn't be talking about IQ levels, when your main argument is "well, it's fishy" Isn't that your argument? "He's not hacking because he didn't perform an incredibly clearly fishy action in this particular circumstance" is that not the basis of this argument about that one attack in the game? Who shouldn't be talking about IQ again? On June 05 2012 23:21 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:19 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:16 IshinShishi wrote:On June 05 2012 23:14 floor exercise wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:08 IshinShishi wrote:
He got caught off guard way too many times, look at his third being killed in the Shakuras game, WTF?Any decent player using maphack wouldn't have been caught like that, I don't really care about the rest, Spades is not a maphacker, bb. Sadly the generic explanation to that is "well, herp derp, he's just making it look like he's not hacking!!" No, it would be something along the line of "using a maphack doesn't imply you will make consistently correct decisions" Spades among many others have been caught map hacking before, and they never played perfect games despite having the significant information advantage afforded to them by hacks. It's as absurd a defense as "look how bad he performs in lan" is as evidence to the contrary Not really, this has nothing to do with decision making, a huge blob going through your minimap to ravage your third would take a guy with 30 apm and I.Q 44 to not notice it. So he would be absolutely stupid to not notice it with a hack, what would that make him if he responded to it? What IQ would be required to realize in that moment how fishy it would look? 46? 47? Wouldn't look fishy at all, at that point pretty much all his income came from his third, everyone should expect an attack there. So he wouldn't need a hack to blindly counter that attack, but he doesn't hack because he didn't blindly counter that attack This defense is getting less and less logical as time progresses ?Seems pretty logically flawless.The fact that he didn't defend his third should be attributed to simply bad play, point being, anyone with a hack would've seen a huge blob and defended it properly (and no one should call it fishy because defending your only source of income should be an obvious move), essentially, not doing it means not hacking, doing it doesn't mean anything in that particular instance.
Apparently it's a really obvious attack so he could justifiably defend it without being called a hacker but you are using it as proof that he isn't hacking. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
So in an alternate reality where he did defend it, you would be here saying that he just did the obvious thing and that it's not proof. How can you turn around and claim that it's evidence that he doesn't hack.
Are you trying to make my brain explode with your self contradictions because we're seriously getting there.
This whole line of reasoning makes no sense, especially when you consider that no one is using that attack as proof of him hacking. Meanwhile you're simultaneously showing how it is proof of both hacks and the absence of hacks. This is some Wookies on Endor type shit.
You're also assuming Spades is incapable of meta-thinking this exact line of reasoning. At this point it's the obvious non obvious proof that he is a hacking legit player.
So when we conclude it proofs nothing either way I ask why you bring it up as defense
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I'm not an expert but the logical thing to do is to compare these replays to some other replays where you're certain he's not hacking. Also compare it to a pool of other players' replays and check if you see the same suspicious behavior else where. This has to be done by an unintersted team.
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On June 05 2012 23:33 LaM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 23:28 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:28 LaM wrote:On June 05 2012 23:25 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:22 phiinix wrote:On June 05 2012 23:12 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 23:10 Ballack wrote:
Has anyone come up with any explanation to the magic scan on antiga against Lucifron? The one where he is scrolling up, stopping, scanning, etc.. It looks really fishy, and I just cannot believe Spades is innocent anymore, it is just too much of a coincidence. You can't tell on a replay if he's scrolling up, because the replay will only follow his actions, not his camera view. If he scans up top, then the replay will move to that area, because he scanned there, not because his camera was. So the whole "magic scan" argument is 100% irrelevant, because that's not how the replay works. Excuse me? I was under the impression that when you click "player cam" It follows that players camera. Is that seriously not how it works? Please elaborate. No it doesn't, it never does. When you click "player camera" it follows your actions. I.e, if you scan somewhere on the map, the camera will only move to that particular place after you've landed the scan. The camera won't follow the players camera view to the place before he lands the scan. That's how the camera function works. Same goes for unit selection; if you select a unit the camera won't move the selected units (depending on your APM, this has something to do with how many actions are being made in that time interval, so that the camera function knows when to jump and when to not) That's wrong. As posted 4 times already, no. -- > http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=139#2768Axeltoss proving my point. That's fine. Saying no and posting one youtube video over and over doesn't make you right. The way you described the camera function is completely incorrect and the video you posted has little relevance to what you were saying besides the fact that both of you seem to think that the commonly held notion of how the camera works is wrong. I wonder if you have ever played a game and watched your replay the way you are talking. If you have, you should know the camera does follow your movements around the map, not your actions as you seem to believe. That doesn't even make sense. People frequently select buildings and produce units with hotkeys while looking elsewhere, and that is what the replay shows. Because the camera function follows your movement. I won't continue to argue this because you are blatantly wrong and it should be clear to everyone reading that you are, therefore no need to clog up the thread.
Brother, this video proves you wrong. It's simple as that. This is how the player camera function works, get over it.
I'm 100% correct, I have no idea why you're saying that this is not how the camera function works, because this is how it works. Go play a game on the ladder, then watch the replay right after and tell me the player camera records your view of the game 100% accurately and then make a video about it to prove me wrong. As of now, I've proven you wrong and you have no valid argument against it.
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EPT
