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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 17:57 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:42 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:36 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci. So proof that shows Spades is a hacker actually becomes proof that he isn't a hacker? Things don't really work that way. He never looks into the fog and somehow you twist that 180 degrees around? Statements like your's really bug me in this thread. He does look into the fog. " He never looks into the fog [...]" just proves to me that you haven't even bothered watching the replays and that you are here just to throw stones. Obviously we're just talking about different games/parts of the game lol
No we aren't. Your statement "He never looks into the fog [...]" is very clear.
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On June 05 2012 17:41 Zarahtra wrote:
I'm not saying "he isn't a hacker", I'm saying there is no proof. That he didn't look at fog of war isn't a proof and certainly not something you can go "ohh he's clearly hacking" like many people say. The only possible proof that has come up, is the person talking about the SCV selection, but that needs to be followed up with to determine if that happens to other fast players.
What the hell?, how can that not be proof? what other evidence do you want that he is using camera lock? ,he shows 2 entire different movement behaviors in the showmatch and his ladder games.
Let me guess what you think is hard evidence:
1.Him repealing every drop. do you think he is that stupid? he would just fake been surprised.
2.Not sending scvs to scout, again do you think he is that stupid?
3.not using scan, again do you think he is that stupid?
4. reviewing his last 50 games. He is not stupid he doesnt hack all the time or when streaming.
If you expect any of the points i said above, Im sorry to say it, but you and a lot of guys are awful at detecting hackers, some guys even asking to review 100 ladder games, i find that ridiculous. you only need those 7 showmatches and couple of his ladder matches to figure it out he is hacking. if you cant see it then you are pretty bad.
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On June 05 2012 17:58 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:41 Zarahtra wrote:
I'm not saying "he isn't a hacker", I'm saying there is no proof. That he didn't look at fog of war isn't a proof and certainly not something you can go "ohh he's clearly hacking" like many people say. The only possible proof that has come up, is the person talking about the SCV selection, but that needs to be followed up with to determine if that happens to other fast players. What the hell?, how can that not be proof? what other evidence do you want that he is using camera lock? ,he shows 2 entire different movement behaviors in the showmatch and his ladder games. Let me guess what you think is hard evidence: 1.Him repealing every drop. do you think he is that stupid? he would just fake been surprised. 2.Not sending scvs to scout, again do you think he is that stupid? 3.not using scan, again do you think he is that stupid? 4. reviewing his last 50 games. He is not stupid he doesnt hack all the time or when streaming. If you expect any of the points i said above, Im sorry to say it, but you and a lot of guys are awful at detecting hackers, some guys even asking to review 100 ladder games, i find that ridiculous. you only need those 7 showmatches and couple of his ladder matches to figure it out he is hacking. if you cant see it then you are pretty bad.
so if spades is not that stupid, how do you explain that he repositionned his army that was in the middle on antiga to the left to intercept... it made it look too obvious he was hacking, a maphacker wouldn't be stupid to do anything this obvious right?
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On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse.
How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team.
That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
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On June 05 2012 17:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:57 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:42 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:36 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci. So proof that shows Spades is a hacker actually becomes proof that he isn't a hacker? Things don't really work that way. He never looks into the fog and somehow you twist that 180 degrees around? Statements like your's really bug me in this thread. He does look into the fog. " He never looks into the fog [...]" just proves to me that you haven't even bothered watching the replays and that you are here just to throw stones. Obviously we're just talking about different games/parts of the game lol No we aren't. Your statement " He never looks into the fog [...]" is very clear.
Yes it should be clear that I don't literary never because only an idiot or someone trying really hard to nitpick would take it literally.
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So is this the way it works ?
I mean an anonymous post ( OP made from a newly created account ) can just point the finger at a recognised pro and everbody accepts it ?
Is this the way TL is ran ? How can the admin allow such a thread posted by an anonymous guy. I mean if it was posted by someone with some forum cred, a couple thousands post here, I could conceive that we would want to listen someone making accusation, because he would have someting to lose if proven wrong. But the OP, none knows who he is, he can't be accounted for his accusations if proven false.
I mean as SCII is evolving into an industry, do people realize how dangerous this is ? It means that anyone could just create a fake account on TL, and accuse anyone else from anything.
We can't let that be. Usually I support the strict moderating policy that's held here, but in that case I think a mistake was made.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
In response to the thousand of "Innocent until prove guilty" suggestions, this is clearly never going to happen in todays world. Not even just in the internet world do we have accusations being thrown around and people being labeled this and that without any proof or until they are proven innocent/guilty by a court of law.
Lets take Micheal Jackson? (Micheal Jackson Court case Source) He was brandished a peadophile without even being found guilty by a court of law, he is still though of a child molester to this day, as well as a fantastic musician.
John Terry (Source for those none Football fans) He is being dubbed a racist without being proven guilty, also lost his ability to captain his country over these allegations, whether being false or true he has lost that right, and was a HUGE likelyhood he would not play in the European championships (TL Euro 2012 Thread) because of this as well, but luckily he was selected as he is a good defender.
So, what i am trying to say is that there will always be this response to accusations whether they are right or wrong, it just seems to be the natural repsonse to being a human being.
Anyway to get to the post and thread, i personally beleive the only way for this to be proven correctly, as i have read the entire thread this morning (taken me 1hour as i did not read the summary until i was at page 60 ;;.) is for some external source to physically check his computer? Now if he was not hacking there would be no trace of the hacking files in the computer? You can never physically delete anything of a computer without properly shredding it and using specific HDD whiping programs, that said if you were to look at his computer in the next few days and notice everything recetly deleted (fresh start, limited files dating back to day "x") then you would say he has messed with it prior to being searched. Well i think this way is a little extreme it seems to be the only way to get to the bottom of this? I mean if he REALLY wants to play SC2 and get good at it and make his living from it, he will do everything in his power to get himself the justice he deserves and the apologises from every single hate filled pitchforked response in this thread? I mean if it was me i would do it this way and get someone externally verify my computer has no hacking programs on it nor has it ever thus eliminating you haven't hacked.
Just my 2cents.
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On June 05 2012 18:01 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:57 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:42 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:36 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci. So proof that shows Spades is a hacker actually becomes proof that he isn't a hacker? Things don't really work that way. He never looks into the fog and somehow you twist that 180 degrees around? Statements like your's really bug me in this thread. He does look into the fog. " He never looks into the fog [...]" just proves to me that you haven't even bothered watching the replays and that you are here just to throw stones. Obviously we're just talking about different games/parts of the game lol No we aren't. Your statement " He never looks into the fog [...]" is very clear. Yes it should be clear that I don't literary never because only an idiot or someone trying really hard to nitpick would take it literally.
He actually never did though. And we're talking about a full screen of fog of war, obviously he might still see the edges at times otherwise that would just be even more ridiculous.
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On June 05 2012 18:04 Kerm wrote:
So is this the way it works ?
I mean an anonymous post ( OP made from a newly created account ) can just point the finger at a recognised pro and everbody accepts it ?
Is this the way TL is ran ? How can the admin allow such a thread posted by an anonymous guy. I mean if it was posted by someone with some forum cred, a couple thousands post here, I could conceive that we would want to listen someone making accusation, because he would have someting to lose if proven wrong. But the OP, none knows who he is, he can't be accounted for his accusations if proven false.
I mean as SCII is evolving into an industry, do people realize how dangerous this is ? It means that anyone could just create a fake account on TL, and accuse anyone else from anything.
We can't let that be. Usually I support the strict moderating policy that's held here, but in that case I think a mistake was made.
a mod closed it then a pro showed up and made it re opened
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On June 05 2012 17:58 chaokel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Very nicely found, and it is a good example of how something can seem condemning and proof when in fact there are other factors at play. Which is why all this bandwagonning is just rediculous in my eyes, maybe he hacked or maybe he didn't but jumping to conclusions so quickly only serves to hurt your position (if you have to go back on something you earlier relied on as evidence) as well as hurts the player with a lot of negative feeling generated from things that arent proven yet.
Quoting this in case people don't notice it.
I posted here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342248¤tpage=130#2589 about why the actions didn't show up in the replay, after talking with Dakota_Fanning, who codes SC2Gears.
I totally jumped the gun on this one and didn't think through how people would just take it as 100% evidence rather than as something that needs checking/alternative theories, which I posted as a disclaimer but honestly wasn't enough given the mob mentality.
PM'd Spades with an apology. Whether or not he hacks this particular bit of "evidence" is actually no evidence at all.
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I think it would be more relevant to review the replays when he was #1 GM rather than the last "x amount" of replays.
Honestly, it's hard to say whether or not some of the suspicious movements in his replays are due to luck/variance considering we're reviewing only a small amount of his games.
But on the flip side, it only takes a few of these 'suspicious actions' to raise awareness of the issue of hacking.
His tank/army movements with zero information against the opponent is what makes me to believe he does hack.
Can anyone rationally explain how he sieges/unsieges/sieges outside of Lucifron's natural on cloud kingdom with zero intel?
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On June 05 2012 17:55 Martijn wrote:
God that really fucking pissed me off. I really shouldn't post when I'm this infuriated, but consider this a lapse in judgement on my part.
If we find out who is threatening Spades, who is still one of our players, don't doubt that our team will most certainly go SlayerS'Jessica on you. Regardless of anything in this thread, show some respect for a fellow human being. Freaking middleschool..
Yeah, you should not post when infuriated. That's scary bad. Did you just threaten the OP for bringing this information with retribution? Or is it someone else?
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On June 05 2012 17:32 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration. Very good post! Quoted so it doesn't disappear.
First of all, shit like this should be trown in the community. Because it stinks already in the first place and this community actually finds stuff that helps people looking for the truth find it. Sure, we got to search between the 95% useless posts. But I think that many people took the time to read the 10-15 good posts in this thread.
Second, I don't understand why the OP his identity makes any fucking difference. Illusion watched the same replays, the same markers. He typed his response to the OP. Consider his post then.
His dumb actions on Twitter don't have a place in this thread.
His personal beef with Mihri is just pathetic. Why is it in this post, in this thread?
That makes 4 paragraphs fucking useless.
The part about Spades cheating is just generic bullshit from a manager. Pros already watched the reply! It was one of the first things to happen in this thread. A fair chance? I watched the replay and I saw hellions run from an invisible army. Following a path that is unseen in history of SCII. If this would be the only suspicious action, I would laugh at the OP. If it were 5 of these actions... I would cringe but try to keep faith in Spades, however tainted faith.
But there are 15 actions that are fucking hilarious. Come on people. Come on.
I can't wait till WW will do it's part properly. I can't fucking wait till the fucking supermegadupermaphackexpert from WW analyses the replats like it should have been done in the first place, in the dark, without anyone knowing.
trololol.
Yesterday before going to bed I had some serious questions, today I found my answers.
Spades, I hope the right people find their brain and ban you from all future events.
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On June 05 2012 18:01 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:57 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:42 JOJOsc2news wrote:On June 05 2012 17:36 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci. So proof that shows Spades is a hacker actually becomes proof that he isn't a hacker? Things don't really work that way. He never looks into the fog and somehow you twist that 180 degrees around? Statements like your's really bug me in this thread. He does look into the fog. " He never looks into the fog [...]" just proves to me that you haven't even bothered watching the replays and that you are here just to throw stones. Obviously we're just talking about different games/parts of the game lol No we aren't. Your statement " He never looks into the fog [...]" is very clear. Yes it should be clear that I don't literary never because only an idiot or someone trying really hard to nitpick would take it literally.
If you write never, I assume you mean never.
And thank you for either calling me "someone trying really hard to nitpick" or an "idiot".
I am clearly wasting my time replying to you. I don't even know if you mean what you write because when I assume what you write is what you mean, that's idiotic.
My sincerest apologies -.-
Edit: If you don't mean never, than don't write it just to make a statement more dramatic.
If you have any further queries, please PM me. No need to derail this.
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On June 05 2012 18:04 Kerm wrote:
So is this the way it works ?
I mean an anonymous post ( OP made from a newly created account ) can just point the finger at a recognised pro and everbody accepts it ?
Is this the way TL is ran ? How can the admin allow such a thread posted by an anonymous guy. I mean if it was posted by someone with some forum cred, a couple thousands post here, I could conceive that we would want to listen someone making accusation, because he would have someting to lose if proven wrong. But the OP, none knows who he is, he can't be accounted for his accusations if proven false.
I mean as SCII is evolving into an industry, do people realize how dangerous this is ? It means that anyone could just create a fake account on TL, and accuse anyone else from anything.
We can't let that be. Usually I support the strict moderating policy that's held here, but in that case I think a mistake was made.
Baseless accusations would disappear / be locked in no time, don't be overly dramatic. There is a reasonable doubt in this case, and therefore it remains open (was closed and re-opened, in fact). Seems fine to me.
And just for the record, I don't get the obsession some people have with # of posts. You can amass a huge # of posts by just spamming LR threads, how that makes you reliable is beyond me (no offense to people active in LR threads intended).
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Uh...I'm just super confused. Couldn't look at the Catz/illusion analysis cause I'm studying for finals =/...oh well.
If Spades isn't hacking, I feel sorry for him.
Otherwise...eh.
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For what it is worth and I know that it is not much, I watched the replay of spades on Antigua. I found it hard to be sure or for that matter even be suspicious of Spade's play. From what i saw it seemed or 'felt' like a game that I would have played, (albeit faster and better). But I did not feel like there were any direct movements and actions that would have been 'unusual'. That is how my games look and when I watch back over them I think 'What was I doing for those 5 seconds' 'Man that was lucky that I scouted that base', and I know that it seems like that bullshit but that is how they look and feel. I think that we all need to be very careful and measured in a situation like this. This is someones lively hood and or career, courts in Australia are not informed of previous convictions or arrests until after the trial is over and that is for good reason. Because someone has done something once does not mean that they would do it again and we should look at the facts as they stand now and not cloud our judgement with previous events that are independent and inconsequential to what is happening currently. I for one hope that after all this he is not thought or found to be innocent.
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On June 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:55 Martijn wrote:
God that really fucking pissed me off. I really shouldn't post when I'm this infuriated, but consider this a lapse in judgement on my part.
If we find out who is threatening Spades, who is still one of our players, don't doubt that our team will most certainly go SlayerS'Jessica on you. Regardless of anything in this thread, show some respect for a fellow human being. Freaking middleschool.. Yeah, you should not post when infuriated. That's scary bad. Did you just threaten the OP for bringing this information with retribution? Or is it someone else?
He threathen the person threathening Spades not the OP, there's a clear difference.
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You are forgetting the principles of the matter, which is truth, respect for privacy and organizational representation, as well as a justified / official / standardized procedure to investigate claims like this. What you are suggesting is that any claim or slander against an individual with in the United States for example, should be given the right to appear on national television for debate because the people of the United States are the most qualified and have the most personal stake in the matter. For every legitimate claim that is given public awareness under this structure of reporting there is ten others where permenant damage is done to a person's reputation with out any compensation from the ones responsible.
Like I said before, what is necessary is an official union or organization and procedure that can represent all the teams / progamers is established, they are the ones qualified to make a judgement on the situation. And with good transparency if a report is purposefully ignored by this organization then the individual has the right to make it public when he/she suspects a conflict of interest with in the organization.
Edit: quoted the wrong person.
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On June 05 2012 18:05 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:55 Martijn wrote:
God that really fucking pissed me off. I really shouldn't post when I'm this infuriated, but consider this a lapse in judgement on my part.
If we find out who is threatening Spades, who is still one of our players, don't doubt that our team will most certainly go SlayerS'Jessica on you. Regardless of anything in this thread, show some respect for a fellow human being. Freaking middleschool.. Yeah, you should not post when infuriated. That's scary bad. Did you just threaten the OP for bringing this information with retribution? Or is it someone else?
Martijn is referring to the people that are "trolling" by sending death threats and such to Spades. This has nothing to do with the OP, unless he is the one sending these threats.
Regardless of what Spades may have done, there is no purpose in being an asshole to him about it. Until something definitive comes out, I'll maintain that he is an innocent player. If he is found to be guilty, then the only thing he should lose is the right to participate in StarCraft and possibly other esports. But if he is found to be innocent, there sure is a whole lot of apologizing that SHOULD happen. But sadly, regardless of what happens, this is probably the end for Spades, he doesn't have quite the staying power of people like Destiny or Orb who were much more recognized.
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EPT
