|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I'm pretty sure we can assume that TL mods and staff likely know the identity of the OP, ie., some behind the scenes stuff probably went down. If it was truly just some random person I doubt this would still be around.
|
ITT: a mountain of accusations
concrete evidence: fuck all
|
On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this. This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die.
RIP Spades.
|
On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base
TT1, can you explain the thought process on Cloud Kingdom where he unsieges his tanks, then re-sieges his tanks not even a few second afterwards? It was pretty damn lucky he did that so he could hit the marines on the high ground that he did not see....
|
On June 05 2012 17:45 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Hmm this interesting, you appear to be correct about 6:24. I can see the selections at 6:25/6:26 but not at 6:24. At the same time, the selections Spades made at 11:07 were after using control group 3, which are his barracks, with no control 5 anywhere adjacent. But you are right, it seems possibly SC2Gears is buggy in this regard. Please no not consider my previous post as definitive.I stated in it that I was asking for alternative explanations, but in case the disclaimer was not clear enough, it is not solid 100% proof and may have alternate explanations like what is being brought up here.
It might not even be a bug. Maybe SC2 selects all the scv's on the mineral line of a CC because it prepares for the use of the Load-in function of the CC. But because it's not a real selection bye the player the SCV's do not get highlighted.
But ofc I'm just guessing here, more importantly I wanted to say:
I think you posted about this idea very commendable. Not saying it is definite but asking for different explanations. Well done I would say. 
|
On June 05 2012 18:25 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:18 EtherealDeath wrote:I will say this one thing though, in addition to my recanting of the "replay analysis evidence" from a few pages ago. + Show Spoiler +
If at the end of all this it seems that Spades is not guilty, we as a community had better go all mob in asking his team to keep him. If you're going to possibly fuck someone's career up as a mob, you'd better be ready to support it as well.
Completely unrelated, but honestly I think there might be some confirmation bias in the analysis of Spades' games. A lot of his weird moves ended up well, but a lot also ended up terribly for him. I wonder how an analysis would go if we were trying to find evidence for Spades being a noob and getting fucked for his decisions, rather than looking for evidence of Spades being a hacker. The confirmation bias point is good. There are controls for that, though. Catz already compared the way he played to lan games. We should pull more games from lans, also of other people, and compare more. Too bad I'm too low level to do it with any value. LAN games is different. I play a lot different at LANs, half of it because I take less risks out of not wanting to lose in some dumbass way like a noob, and half due to nerves. You'll see me straight up 7 gate terrans with no robo quite often on ladder, but I almost never do that at a LAN. Do I lose to cloaked banshee followup to 1 rax FE on ladder? Yes, sometimes I can win with a proxied robo after the banshee hits my mineral line, but usually I lose when that happens if I 7 gate. Am I willing to take that risk in LANs? No, generally not unless it's against someone good, and even then I might try to play "safe". So I think that method of trying to remvoe a confirmation bias is not necessarily the best or a good way to do so.
That's a good point, but possibly not something you cannot check for as well. You mention things that are gameplay or strategy issues. Yet, we aren't looking for that. What people are really looking for is camera movement that has been deemed suspicious. If the things Catz and others point out also occur in LAN games of his, then one can conclude that it's just confirmation bias. If one cannot find such suspicious camera movement, one ought to disregard the evidence as presented now.
|
On June 05 2012 17:38 GhostFiber wrote:
We wouldn't need threads like this if Blizzard had an active anti-cheat stance... just say'n....
Blizzard will never be able to keep SC2 a hack free game. What I'm more concerned with is the integrity of future online events and even some of the major LANs. This is more of the event organisers' responsibility rather than Blizzard's though they can always take a more active role.
Online events can be dealt with something as simple as having a webcam focused on your monitor and/or being subject to more rigorous process monitoring.
Ones like the accusations against Leenock and over the shoulder coaching can be easily remedied.
|
On June 05 2012 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this. + Show Spoiler +
To be honest I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this. This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
There is nothing preventing anyone from grabbing a large replay pack of any random Pro and highlighting every blind counter, stoppage in camera movement or lucky break, questioning the integrity of that player and causing a shit storm. Whether the claim valid or not will be irrelevant once their name is dragged through the mud.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
Apparently you missed the fact that TL became the center of investigating hackers (GM hackers thread) and that's how this issue was raised. This was due to the fact that there was no better institution working on keeping hackers out of SC2 (Here's looking at you Blizz). Everyone agrees that there should be a better way of doing it, but there currently isn't a better way to do it. Also, if the OP is a teammate or someone like that, he cannot contact other pros. Everyone will know who he is and the information will leak out. That can be incredibly damaging if people with money on the line decide to strike back in underhanded ways.
In the other threads, the hacks where blatant and obvious. So far, the only 'proof' is fishy play, Spades not looking at the fog of war during the showmatch, and a couple of former teammates suspecting him of cheating but not necessarily seeing it firsthand.
The standard of 'proof' needs to be better than that before someone gets permabanned from SC2, imo.
|
On June 05 2012 18:26 Penecks wrote:
I'm pretty sure we can assume that TL mods and staff likely know the identity of the OP, ie., some behind the scenes stuff probably went down. If it was truly just some random person I doubt this would still be around.
Originally this thread was locked because a lot of the early pros that took a look at this thread claimed that this was definitive enough for maphacking, but it was a significant and would reopen if a pro claimed it was possible. Illusion responds to the Mod with a list of parts in the replay he found suspicious and the tread opened up again.
As for assuming that the TL mods know the OP, I'm not sure how relevant this is. If the whole thing blows over as a false allegation however, I'm certain if they know who the OP is his/her name will be revealed.
|
On June 05 2012 18:22 EtherealDeath wrote:
I can see the eapm in that game o.O
Lucifron APM 195 EAPM 110 Redundancy 43%
Spades APM 212 EAPM 91 Redundancy 56%
Yeah I can see the same in SC2Gears but log onto Starcraft 2, and check I see 0 for both all game, is it my starcraft clients or is it a blizzard AI glitch or replay corrupt?
|
On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base
Yea, I'd stream myself analyzing this from the point of view of "I am a maphacker in Spade's position" with the goal of making fun of his "bad play" and saying how what he is doing is wrong and the obvious play is actually X, rather than trying to show he hacks, in an attempt to try to reveal the effects of confirmation bias, but I don't feel confident enough in my TvT knowledge to do so since it is my offrace and quite frankly my shittiest matchup by far.
Maybe someone who is confident in their TvT knowledge could do so from this point of view, instead of the one we've gotten so far that quite frankly seems to have had the goal in mind of showing that he hacks. So, let's see what we get when we try to show that he's a noob and makes bad decisions. Compare the two results and see what we think of the confirmation bias. I think this is absolutely necessary before anyone can come to a conclusion.
|
On June 05 2012 18:29 algorithm0r wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest [B]I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this.{/B] This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die. RIP Spades.
What? This is actually ridiculous. If I created an anonymous user id and said iDra was hacking, I would not get the same amount of attention as this anonymous user did. Why? Because he actually has circumstantial evidence that raises the issue of Spades hacking.
Of course this is the right place to be discussing the hacking issue, don't be ridiculous.
|
On June 05 2012 18:11 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:28 Alacar wrote:
Not when you are dealing with a guy who was Rank #1 GM on NA. ...I don't really know what else to say. This action is equivalent to a pro player "forgetting to make workers" early game for 20 seconds or however long his scout was in Lucifron's base. It's just not something you do. I don't have "reasonable doubt" on this point. First, it is confirmed he was a mid-level GM with no cheating at all, correct? And he was #1 GM on NA which everyone says is easier than EU and Korea, right? How long was he number 1 and at what point was it in the season? If he was GM [but not pro-level] without cheating, dropped down to Masters because he lost focus, and then next season reached #1 GM two plausible explanations are available: 1. he was cheating or 2. he regained focus and grinded out a bunch of games to get enough points to be at the top for a few days or weeks. I mean, I can't be the only one who remembers all the jokes about NA GM. This is the first time I've even seen it taken seriously, outside of a general 'better to be GM than just Masters' sort of way. Let's see the replays of Spades beating Stephano and DeMuslim and all the other high GMs when Spades was number 1. That is, if he didn't just beat a bunch of other mid-level GMs early in the season to get enough points to be at the top. Again, not saying there is evidence he is innocent, or even that I think he is innocent. I just believe the word "proof" has a very different definition to many people in these threads.
Since you seem obsessed with finding games of top Koreans who don't scout find me a game where a Korean pro worker scouts and then doesn't look at it. Or I guess the other alternative is find me a game where Spades does this in one of his stream VODs. This is just not something anyone above platinum does.
|
you know that most of the things you say are player dependent and standard timings right? plus..needless to say , if someone goes cloak in the first game game vs you , in the second game 95% of the cases he won't go for the same build. on top of that , daybreak is a HUGE map and you can get off with being greedy when u know your opponent...but that's my opinion...feel free not to take it in consideration
|
|
|
On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
Except it's not the best action to make it public and THEN discuss it
KESPA also wouldn't make a press release *and oh yeah there seems to be some match fixing, we look in to this. savior is one of the guys we suspect but don't judge him yet!*
|
On June 05 2012 18:31 LRObot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:38 GhostFiber wrote:
We wouldn't need threads like this if Blizzard had an active anti-cheat stance... just say'n.... Blizzard will never be able to keep SC2 a hack free game. What I'm more concerned with is the integrity of future online events and even some of the major LANs. This is more of the event organisers' responsibility rather than Blizzard's though they can always take a more active role. Online events can be dealt with something as simple as having a webcam focused on your monitor and/or being subject to more rigorous process monitoring. Ones like the accusations against Leenock and over the shoulder coaching can be easily remedied.
When i play and my roomate gives me hints is that cheating for you guys?
IF not what about if i were mid master and he is GM?
Or in a online tournament where i can win 50$?
And what about a online tournament where i can win 5000$?
I think the line with over the shoulder coaching is pretty difficult to draw.
Coaching should be allowed but when? Only between games?
|
On June 05 2012 18:32 VonDarkmore wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:22 EtherealDeath wrote:
I can see the eapm in that game o.O
Lucifron APM 195 EAPM 110 Redundancy 43%
Spades APM 212 EAPM 91 Redundancy 56% Yeah I can see the same in SC2Gears but log onto Starcraft 2, and check I see 0 for both all game, is it my starcraft clients or is it a blizzard AI glitch or replay corrupt?
Ah, same here. It's a NASL map though, so the same mechanism that hides the score screen and build order table might be the culprit for why SC2 shows no apm in-game.
|
On June 05 2012 18:33 jaaaaakke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:29 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest [B]I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this.{/B] This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die. RIP Spades. What? This is actually ridiculous. If I created an anonymous user id and said iDra was hacking, I would not get the same amount of attention as this anonymous user did. Why? Because he actually has circumstantial evidence that raises the issue of Spades hacking. Of course this is the right place to be discussing the hacking issue, don't be ridiculous.
Thanks for the opinion. TL has ruined the careers of several people for calling cheesers "n*****" and "f*****". Orb and Destiny have suffered most notably.
This "evidence" is circumstantial and this is not the arena for this discussion. Only those with legit claims against Spades for misconduct should be involved. Please close this thread.
|
On June 05 2012 18:33 jaaaaakke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:29 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest [B]I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this.{/B] This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die. RIP Spades. What? This is actually ridiculous. If I created an anonymous user id and said iDra was hacking, I would not get the same amount of attention as this anonymous user did. Why? Because he actually has circumstantial evidence that raises the issue of Spades hacking. Of course this is the right place to be discussing the hacking issue, don't be ridiculous.
You're right that TL is right place to discuss this, but we're not getting a discussion in this thread. Too many people are just reading the OP (and not even that I imagine) and then posting either "WITCHHUNT" or "DRAMA OH BOYYYYY". The only people that seem to actually be reading anything are members such as EternalDeath who are suggesting things that should be done to reach a definitive conclusion.
And you're also right that if IdrA was the target, I'm sure that it would be possible to find a set of replays that could be labeled suspicious, but instead of the current mob mentality, I'm pretty sure more people would actually watch the replays.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
