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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 18:26 Penecks wrote:
I'm pretty sure we can assume that TL mods and staff likely know the identity of the OP, ie., some behind the scenes stuff probably went down. If it was truly just some random person I doubt this would still be around.
I believe Mods and Pros have their own private forum that the general forum can't see. If they do know the poster, they could easily discuss it there.
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On June 05 2012 18:33 jaaaaakke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:29 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest [B]I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this.{/B] This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die. RIP Spades. What? This is actually ridiculous. If I created an anonymous user id and said iDra was hacking, I would not get the same amount of attention as this anonymous user did. Why? Because he actually has circumstantial evidence that raises the issue of Spades hacking. Of course this is the right place to be discussing the hacking issue, don't be ridiculous.
You know there is a reason they dont have a trial with a murderer where everyone can chime in and be part of the jury right? This should have been deleted and the correct people chosen to investigate. Online things are simply witch hunts done by anyone from the age of 1-100. Do you really think teenage kids understand the implications of what this does to Spades' life and will thus give it the due care and diligence that it deserves?
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On June 05 2012 18:32 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:25 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this. + Show Spoiler +
To be honest I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this. This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
There is nothing preventing anyone from grabbing a large replay pack of any random Pro and highlighting every blind counter, stoppage in camera movement or lucky break, questioning the integrity of that player and causing a shit storm. Whether the claim valid or not will be irrelevant once their name is dragged through the mud.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
Apparently you missed the fact that TL became the center of investigating hackers (GM hackers thread) and that's how this issue was raised. This was due to the fact that there was no better institution working on keeping hackers out of SC2 (Here's looking at you Blizz). Everyone agrees that there should be a better way of doing it, but there currently isn't a better way to do it. Also, if the OP is a teammate or someone like that, he cannot contact other pros. Everyone will know who he is and the information will leak out. That can be incredibly damaging if people with money on the line decide to strike back in underhanded ways. In the other threads, the hacks where blatant and obvious. So far, the only 'proof' is fishy play, Spades not looking at the fog of war during the showmatch, and a couple of former teammates suspecting him of cheating but not necessarily seeing it firsthand. The standard of 'proof' needs to be better than that before someone gets permabanned from SC2, imo.
I see your point but I'm afraid reality is messier than you would like it to be.
In the GM hackers thread there are a number of accusations and defenses, just like here. It's the OP of that thread that only places hackers in the OP based on undeniable evidence. The problem is, because this is Spades, the thread and issue are already bigger than that thread. This means that for the same process to run its course, we need wait before a conclusion is made (and that will undoubtedly be posted in the OP by the mods). So, it's the same process if you discount scale.
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On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base
Then where are all the pros defending the ridiculous actions?
Nerchio just bashed the OP for the couple actions he wrongly saw as MH, but kept quiet about obvious points.
Whiplash defends these accusation by saying Spades invested time in SCII and therefore wouldn't hack. How fucking braindeath is that argument?
Attero didn't even tried to defend Spades according to the replays.
KellyMilkies said something silly about something that didn't have to do anything with this. Just like when she was casting for GOM.
The people around Spades, Team and Friends, all claim to have never seen Spades hack, and all claim Spades would never hack because he is Spades (their best argument). But don't explain strange movement in the replays.
On the other side however,
I have my own fucking eyes.
And in addition to that, there is Illusion, Avilo and giX. The last one with a somewhat arbitrary story. iNcontroL and IdrA, who left it for what it is. But both made there point I think.
The OP.
Other fine people in this thread, maybe only 10-15, that found some very good shit.
What else do you want us to do? We are not all brainless monkeys. But with these facts?
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I watched the taldarim game, because the op seemed to make the most valid poitns in that game.
Only two things seemed dubious to me. The hellions at 16:30 + Show Spoiler +16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army.
Both these can be attributed to game sense/luck to be honest.
What the OP doesn't mention is that many things point out that Spades isn't hacking ( at least in that game, which is the only game i saw). These include: getting caught out of position (multiple times), at a certain point: all his vikings sent to defend his main vs drops (while non are coming), and the biggest thing: Not sending a hellion to Lucifron 2 hidden bases. That last one could easily have won him that close game and it wouldn't have looked suspicious to send a hellion scouting and then 'accidentally' finding the two undefended expos.
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On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character.
Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward.
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On June 05 2012 17:32 Zavior wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:31 mr_tolkien wrote:On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. You've been making yourself look like a martyr since the very first post. Usually, it's not the stance innocent people decide to take... It does not matter what stance he takes, nor wether he is innocent or not. The fabled incredible sc2 community will have its witchhunt.
Witchhunt? His old team manager said he cheated. His old teammates said they were suspicious. Catz said he heard about the stream cheating incident too, so its not bullshit. All of that on top of never looking into the fog of war?
Cheaters need to be exiled, especially repeat offenders. People can be forgiven over time, but a second time?
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On June 05 2012 18:44 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward.
And this is what's called shooting the messenger...
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On June 05 2012 18:43 AA.spoon wrote:I watched the taldarim game, because the op seemed to make the most valid poitns in that game. Only two things seemed dubious to me. The hellions at 16:30 + Show Spoiler +16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army. and at 32:50 when he starts to defend against a drop in his main he hasn"t seen yet. Both these can be attributed to game sense/luck to be honest. What the OP doesn't mention is that many things point out that Spades isn't hacking ( at least in that game, which is the only game i saw). These include: getting caught out of position (multiple times), at a certain point: all his vikings sent to defend his main vs drops (while non are coming), and the biggest thing: Not sending a hellion to Lucifron 2 hidden bases. That last one could easily have won him that close game and it wouldn't have looked suspicious to send a hellion scouting and then 'accidentally' finding the two undefended expos.
Ofcourse he doesen't. He's not that stupid. If he did that then it would be incredibly obvious that he was hacking (even more obvious then it already is) so, yeah.
He is a hacker and he has hacked in BW. Face the evidence.
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crossposted from choyas thread
Many posters here are too young to know of the past hack / cheat hunts in BW.
Was like a fucking crusade.
No reason to not do it in sc2.
Especially with the money involved.
Besides, I don't have a single example of someone falsely accused of hacking and having his "career" destroyed.
Every single player who was accused and lost all credibility was always rightfully accused.
It's more about how many famous players cheat you don't know about rather than the poor wrongfully accused sc2 pro !
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On June 05 2012 18:25 Gullen95 wrote:
Has is been mentioned that his camera actually does go into an area he hasn't scouted?
In the game on Entombed Valley at 12:24
If that's when he places the third, there's still a speck of vision on the right coming from the Barracks.
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On June 05 2012 18:42 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base Then where are all the pros defending the ridiculous actions? Nerchio just bashed the OP for the couple actions he wrongly saw as MH, but kept quiet about obvious points. Whiplash defends these accusation by saying Spades invested time in SCII and therefore wouldn't hack. How fucking braindeath is that argument? Attero didn't even tried to defend Spades according to the replays. KellyMilkies said something silly about something that didn't have to do anything with this. Just like when she was casting for GOM. The people around Spades, Team and Friends, all claim to have never seen Spades hack, and all claim Spades would never hack because he is Spades (their best argument). But don't explain strange movement in the replays. On the other side however, I have my own fucking eyes. And in addition to that, there is Illusion, Avilo and giX. The last one with a somewhat arbitrary story. iNcontroL and IdrA, who left it for what it is. But both made there point I think. The OP. Other fine people in this thread, maybe only 10-15, that found some very good shit. What else do you want us to do? We are not all brainless monkeys. But with these facts?
pros are lazy as fuck, most of them dont care about stuff that doesnt concern them and the others wont put their reputation on the line if they dont know someone really well, anywho its 6am and i still didnt sleep yet. keep it classy tl
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On June 05 2012 18:33 jaaaaakke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:29 algorithm0r wrote:On June 05 2012 18:20 Defacer wrote:
TL forums is an idiotic place to discuss this.
To be honest I'm really disappointed with the way the mods have handled this.{/B] This is a serious allegation by an anonymous poster. The evidence to prove this claim is at best inconclusive, and for it to be debated and speculated in the public forum has already done irreparable damage to Spade's reputation and career.
Even if he were to somehow prove he didn't cheat in this showmatch or other matches -- which is impossible -- the damage is done. He will always be suspected of cheating.
Now, it still may be a possibility that Spade does hack. But still, it's absolutely appalling how easily it is for an anonymous poster, with no history or credibility (at least it hasn't been made public), to simply destroy the reputation of a player on this forum.
TL should be embarassed right now. Pro players should be embarassed right now, by contributing to the speculation and fuelling an environment where they themselves and their peers can be so easily ostracized.
If TL wanted to treat this issue seriously, they would investigate it themselves, consult players privately, and if they deem it valid or newsworthy, post a lengthy article explaining why Spades will never participate in a TSL ever again.
Instead, the community happened.
This x 1000. Please lock this thread already. TL is the place where gamers come to die. RIP Spades. What? This is actually ridiculous. If I created an anonymous user id and said iDra was hacking, I would not get the same amount of attention as this anonymous user did. Why? Because he actually has circumstantial evidence that raises the issue of Spades hacking. Of course this is the right place to be discussing the hacking issue, don't be ridiculous.
You can deconstruct the flaws in anyone's game and make them look foolish. IdrA is a bad example because he plays too safe.
Ironically, Catz is the perfect example of a player that plays recklessly enough that you could probably pick apart and second guess the logic of his decisions.
95% of Catz analysis on his stream, by his own admission, was not definitive. Suspicious plays could be chalked up to bad decision-making, bad scouting, or lucky breaks.
And 'discussing the hacking issue' is not what this thread is about. If it were, we would be talking about measures that tournaments can do to discourage hacking, or standard that players can demand before participating in a tournament to insure hacking is impossible.
What this thread is actually is a bunch of random people ripping apart a player based on a set of replays in public.
TL should ask themselves: is this how Pro's and Teams should police themselves? Would TL allow one of their own players to undergo this level of scrutiny?
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On June 05 2012 18:47 Bromazepam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:25 Gullen95 wrote:
Has is been mentioned that his camera actually does go into an area he hasn't scouted?
In the game on Entombed Valley at 12:24 If that's when he places the third, there's still a speck of vision on the right coming from the Barracks.
He actually did have a full screen of fog of war in the Entombed Valley game.. 1:19:30-1:20:10
http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912
CatZ just explains for the first time that 'You can see in the fog of war if you rightclick' which seemed odd to me, as they never talked about that before.
It is later in the game, not when placing his 3rd
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I wached the replays.
He Hacked it´s obvious
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On June 05 2012 18:49 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:42 Koshi wrote:On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base Then where are all the pros defending the ridiculous actions? Nerchio just bashed the OP for the couple actions he wrongly saw as MH, but kept quiet about obvious points. Whiplash defends these accusation by saying Spades invested time in SCII and therefore wouldn't hack. How fucking braindeath is that argument? Attero didn't even tried to defend Spades according to the replays. KellyMilkies said something silly about something that didn't have to do anything with this. Just like when she was casting for GOM. The people around Spades, Team and Friends, all claim to have never seen Spades hack, and all claim Spades would never hack because he is Spades (their best argument). But don't explain strange movement in the replays. On the other side however, I have my own fucking eyes. And in addition to that, there is Illusion, Avilo and giX. The last one with a somewhat arbitrary story. iNcontroL and IdrA, who left it for what it is. But both made there point I think. The OP. Other fine people in this thread, maybe only 10-15, that found some very good shit. What else do you want us to do? We are not all brainless monkeys. But with these facts? pros are lazy as fuck, most of them dont care about stuff that doesnt concern them and the others wont put their reputation on the line if they dont know someone really well, anywho its 6am and i still didnt sleep yet. keep it classy tl
Bye!  On a side note I remember reading one pro's opinion that almost all of the points in the OP were very easily explained, wrong, or grossly over exagerated
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Has anyone analysed any of those replays he sent in? 100 replays. If he didn't cheat there then he doesnt cheat period. If he did then this thread should exist. Should be closed till then.
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On June 05 2012 18:44 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward.
Why is that a problem? It happens with anonymous tips to newspapers about stories or to the police about crimes all the time? If the option to remain anonymous wouldnt exist, a lot of stuff would never reach the surface. It might be cowardly, but hardly something to get upset over, nor something to take into account when discussing the topic.
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It is extremely difficult to tell if someone is hacking when shit is done over internet, whitch is why i dont think Spades should be erased from scene just because of "lucky" game(s). However, it would be extremely naive to think that people dont hack the SC2 as much as they can. All sports got their cheaters, they will deny cheating even when its been proven 100%. Hell, some of them might actually believe it them selfs.
I talked about this with one friend of mine who i know used auto aim on counter strike. I couldnt understand how he could find the game fun when script is doing all the work. He said it was fun to "pwn" people, and that using hacks is legit because he has balls to download and use the program. We enjoyed differend things in the game and he either had no conscience or he had found a way to convince him self that cheating is OK.
Now when money is involved, cheating becomes more like business. More refined and well thought of. It also needs to be taken more seriously, and while i dont think that these witch hunts are the best way to deal with it, it certainly raises awareness and might breed new methods of finding hackers. Community is passionate and ready to burn those that dare to cheat in higher levels of play, whitch is really nice to know. Spades might become an victim of crowd mentality, or he might really be a cheater, as he has been found to be before. Call me a terrible, cynical person, but i dont believe into people who have already fucked up before. Only way he can convinse me that he is legit is to compete in live events where cheating is almost impossible and doing well on those.
TLDR: Cheating is here, has been here, is not going anywhere and it is almost impossible to be 100% sure that someone did/didnt hack. Wanna be legit? Do well in live events. Personally dont give a shit about online events or ladder ranks.
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On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here.
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
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