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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 19:04 Atoissen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. This is kind of the best hard evidence imo, should be added to "evidence list" or something...!?
On June 05 2012 17:51 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:45 EtherealDeath wrote:On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Hmm this interesting, you appear to be correct about 6:24. I can see the selections at 6:25/6:26 but not at 6:24. At the same time, the selections Spades made at 11:07 were after using control group 3, which are his barracks, with no control 5 anywhere adjacent. But you are right, it seems possibly SC2Gears is buggy in this regard. Please no not consider my previous post as definitive.I stated in it that I was asking for alternative explanations, but in case the disclaimer was not clear enough, it is not solid 100% proof and may have alternate explanations like what is being brought up here. Another important piece of information from Dakota_FanningShow nested quote +
This hotkey spam and SCV selection isn't hack, or at least not proof of it.
You probably don't see the selection circles on SCVs because at the same frame he presses a hotkey select (you can verify this if you uncheck Seconds in the Replay analyzer), and probably SC2 shows selection with circles with the last select action at any given frame...
So, it looks like the gun was jumped here. If anything it makes the accusations of camera lock hack less likely.
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On June 05 2012 19:02 Zenislev wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:00 lost_artz wrote:On June 05 2012 18:57 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 18:52 Defacer wrote:
TL should ask themselves: is this how Pro's and Teams should police themselves? Would TL allow one of their own players to undergo this level of scrutiny?
This is probably the best question, because I think we all know the answer. Personally I, like you am quite dissappointed by how TL mods have handled this. All it takes is a pro with a grudge and you open the thread up again and throw Spades under the bus. You should give the team some time to go over those replays, Spades to get some time to put up a well written response to this accusation and most of all, fix the OP and remove all these incredibly stupid places where the OP says he thinks spades is doing something fishy, which is actually quite natural to all. Even if they locked this thread it would just get restarted somewhere else. Locking a thread won't make the issue disappear. They can lock those threads too...
Yah right. Besides, if not in TL, there are plenty of forums where these kinds of things get discussed on abundance. Links to these discussions would be posted, tweeted and discussed in podcasts etc even if the gods damn TL server machine was taken down. Can of worms has been opened, now you gotta deal with it.
Atleast people know what is the opinion of the people when someone gets busted for hacking... People know hes capable and willing to hack, that is what makes it so bad in my opinion. Spades has already gotten a second change.
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On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here.
You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread.
Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects.
But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others:
a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process.
b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc.
c) Your harassment of the OP.
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On June 05 2012 19:06 Zavior wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:04 Atoissen wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. This is kind of the best hard evidence imo, should be added to "evidence list" or something...!? Considering the guy who posted that said himself that he was wrong.. No, it should not be added there
Ok 
This therad grows so fast im falling behind reading QQ
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On June 05 2012 19:04 Atoissen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. This is kind of the best hard evidence imo, should be added to "evidence list" or something...!?
You seem to have missed the post like a page or two later where someone actually did explain this as not a cheating thing.
Edit: was going to edit in a link/quote back to the post I was referring to but Etherealdeath beat me to it at the top of this page.
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On June 05 2012 18:52 dangerjoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:47 Bromazepam wrote:On June 05 2012 18:25 Gullen95 wrote:
Has is been mentioned that his camera actually does go into an area he hasn't scouted?
In the game on Entombed Valley at 12:24 If that's when he places the third, there's still a speck of vision on the right coming from the Barracks. He actually did have a full screen of fog of war in the Entombed Valley game.. 1:19:30-1:20:10 http://www.twitch.tv/rootcatz/b/320407912CatZ just explains for the first time that 'You can see in the fog of war if you rightclick' which seemed odd to me, as they never talked about that before. It is later in the game, not when placing his 3rd
He still had a speck of vision in the top left corner. You can easily see it by following his camera until it looks like it's entirely in the FoW, put vision to Everyone, select something of Lucifron and press and release 'V' repeatedly. You will see a blinking area in the top left, Spades' vision appearing and disappearing.
By the way, I want to make clear that I'm not against Spades, I'm just using the non-decision related evidence I have to say what it looks like to me.
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suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper.
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On June 05 2012 04:22 drolets wrote:Before starting... for those of you who don't know, the latest maphacks on the internet block your camera on the last place visited when u are looking at some place u haven't got ANY kind of vision on, so that if people watch the replays they don't find it so evident that you are hacking. Camera block situations should be taken as moments where the camera is COMPLETELY frozen but no action is being made, they are easy to spot because most progamers are constantly moving around with the mouse, and almost never leave their camera at the exact same spot, if they do, it's just for about 1-2 seconds. So, probably most of you know Spades as a decent terran brood war player, which was caught maphacking some years ago. Well, guess what, he's back! Apparently, he is maphacking on Starcraft II too or that is the sensation I had while watching his showmatch versus LucifroN last night... after asking for the replays and analyzing them there's no doubt. I understand there can be hackers on low levels, but we must stop at any cost people from maphacking at pro/semi-pro levels. This is what I found on the replays... If you don't have enough time for watching all of them, or you don't want, or whatever go directly to the Tal'darim Altar one, it's the most evident one. Here are the replays: https://rapidshare.com/files/1864122426/LucifroNvsSpades.zipEVIDENCE: Overall: His camera gets blocked NUMEROUS times, much more than any non-hacking player. His camera NEVER watches a place he hasn't got vision of, neither for scouting, neither for sending units, neither because of a missclick, he ALWAYS make the exact counter without scouting properly (as he doesn't even scan) and he ALWAYS take the right positions at the right times without having even seen opponents army. Let's get into the games, make sure you put Spades camera on. Since the camera blocks are always constant and you can see them by yourself i won't point them out unless they are really determining. Game 1: Antiga Shipyard. 6:15 When he scouted he didn't see any evidence of fast gas, however, before scanning he already starts to build a bay for defending against cloack-banshee. 9:11 9 sec camera block. 9:30 New banshee from LucifroN is leaving his base, he moves his vikings, that had been waiting at the entry of his natural for over 30 sec to cover his main. 10:45 He gets 2 marines to send them to the xel'naga, however, his camera doesn't move to the center of the map, it gets blocked on his army. 11:02 8 sec camera block The rest of the game is pure action on the middle of the map, always having vision over his opponent, so there's nothing really weird, just a few camera blocks here and there when he loses control over the xel'naga. Game 2: Entombed Valley 2:14 He sends the SCV without looking at where he's sending it and the camera gets blocked for 4 secs. However, he doesn't even look at LucifroN's base when the SCV reach it. 6:00 Even if he didn't even watch it, on the minimap you can see LucifroN had a gas, he had done the EXACT same openning as on game 1, however Spades doesn't make bay, neither raven, he goes directly for a viking and waste ALL his energy on a mule, as if he knew 100% sure cloack banshees weren't comming (weird as he didn't even scan). 7:47 Notice how he sieges the tanks on the EXACT position for not being shot by the bunker 13:42 LucifroN advances 2 marines to kill Spades marine at the right of the map, would be obvious to think that LucifroN's army is comming behind, however spades doesn't move his army for about 30 sec. 14:10 LucifroN's army is getting out of his base to that spot, Spades doesn't see ANYTHING, but he sieges his tanks right in the elevation and move his marines out of his base and puts them next to the spot LucifroN is going. 20:30 first scan to LucifroN's base in the whole game!! Spots all his army and the third cc. Game 3: Shakuras Plateau 3:55 He sends out 4 SCVS to his natural, WITHOUT having seen the marine, and WITHOUT having scouted. 5:08 Most accurate scan ever, however, he doesn't even select the barracks to see what building it is, and he doesn't even look at the third cc. 15:05 Would be obvious to think LucifroN has the mid control, but he moves his tanks to the xel'naga without any kind of fear. 16:20 Look how he watches whole LucifroN's army, just in the border of the fog of war. 20:05 He moves all his marines to the spot where LucifroN is going to attack, eventhough he isn't controlling the xel'naga and he doesn't know if he's gonna come that way. Game 4: Metalopolis 2:50 He selects his SCV and make it go back to his base, however, his camera is blocked on his barracks for about 5 seconds. 6:00 Again, despite not having scouted, he isn't making any kind of cloack-banshee prevention as he did on the first game. 7:20 He starts to move his army towards the position LucifroN's drop is comming without having seen anything, he changes the direction up to 3 times in less than 5 secs as LucifroN moves his medevak. Game 5: Tal'darim Altar 8:00 He had been making a lot of hellions for some early aggression, but right after LucifroN closes his natural with depots, without seeing it he stops making more, starts making tanks and starts killing his 3rd base rocks. 10:50 Despite having a marine and a Barrack to spot any kind of drop, he doesn't see LucifroN's drop comming, however, he leaves all his hellions on his natural instead of having them around the map which would be the most normal given that you haven't spotted any drop comming. JUST in the moment where the medevaks appear on the minimap (and without having seen them with the camera) he moves his hellions to stop the drop. 12:30 Camera gets blocked on the border of the fog of war. 14:00 Despite having his army on LucifroN's natural, LucifroN manages to sneak through it with his army. Spades doesn't see it, but yet he sieges 2 tanks on his natural and moves a hellion that had been still for over a minute to the xel'naga tower. 16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army. 17:00 Despite having seen LucifroN going to a drop through the 9 expansion he leaves ALL his vikings and ALL his tanks on his natural expansion. 18:20 He unsieges ALL his tanks, and starts to move to his third, without having seen LucifroN move to there. 19:00 He rapidly moves again to his natural, right as LucifroN's army is comming. 21:10 He starts to move back all his vikings and a pair of tanks to defend agains the unseen drop of LucifroN comming to his main base (of course, leaving a decent ammount of tanks on his third to defend against the little group of units LucifroN has there, however he completely unprotects his natural expansion, as there are no LucifroN units around. 22:57 Curious 7-sec camera block right before LucifroN's drop came over. 24:30 again, he unsieges all his tanks on the natural and 10 sec after that he selects all his army, to start moving to his third RIGHT in the exact moment where LucifroN come in. 25:15 He unsieges all the tanks on his main base leaving it unprotected to any kind of drop and moves all of them to his natural, right where LucifroN is comming with all his army. 25:35 After seeing all the tanks there LucifroN moves back and start to walk to Spades third entry. Spades decides to unsiege 5-6 tanks and send them to his third without having seen anything again. 29:35 LucifroN is comming for Spades third, again, he hasn't seen anything. 5 seconds after that LucifroN lift half of his units into 2 medevaks, then Spades select all his vikings and moves forward to try to kill the unseen medevaks. 30:40 He unsieges ALL the tanks in the main despite LucifroN having been dropping there for a while and moves them all to his natural,right where LucifroN is comming. 31:10 he scans the xel'naga right in time to see LucifroN's army moving to 9-expansion (probably in order to drop). However LucifroN is just tricking him, and moves back to the xel'naga once the scan is over. Spades doesn't unsiege ANY tank to try to prevent a drop in the main and just keeps them all on his natural. 32:15 he scans his thirdbase entry to spot ALL LucifroN's army, he hadn't previously scanned there at any other point on the game. 32:50 he moves with ALL his army to his main base, where a BIG drop is going to come, and without having seen anything. Game 6: Daybreak 4:30 He puts his third command center right in position, without even knowing if LucifroN was going for 2 fast cc too (otherways it would've been a suicide). 15:45 He moves around trying to defend the entry where LucifroN may come in, then LucifroN decides to leave and he goes after him. From here on, he has whole map control so nothing really matters, eventhough there are a few more camera blocks here and there. Game 7: Shattered Temple 6:00 Remember game 2 and 4? Spades went for a viking to prevent uncloacked banshees or drop. This time, however, he makes raven-viking without having scanned and thus, not (supposedly) knowing LucifroN is going cloack banshee. 7:20 He moves his marines and his raven to the location where LucifroN's banshee is going (He doesn't even know LucifroN is going banshees). 14:30 He goes to his natural entry with almost all his army to get a good position to fight against LucifroN forces (which he hasn't seen yet). 16:55 Instead of leaving some tanks on his main, fearing another attack from LucifroN on that spot he sends all of his army next to the golden, right where LucifroN is going, and suddently unsieges to reposition his tanks when LucifroN is moving. That's all, I think it is more than obvious that he is hacking, specially considering he was already caught hacking on broodwar... whatever, you guys judge, it's our duty to make this game as clean as possible.
-------------> former VT player and Team Mate of Spades (Not really a mate).
I can tell you 3 things:
1) Spades has good TvT, he always has and I don't believe their is much skill difference between him and Lucifron. He did go to Korea to play starcraft, you have to be 'reasonably good' for this. Also consider he has been rank 1 GM North America in the last 6 months.
2) If Spades did maphack, why do I see him always lose to cheese more often than macro style play? (Believe it when I say that cheese is his biggest loss.)
3) If Spades has decided to start hacking, it will have been only recently.
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On June 05 2012 19:11 shadymmj wrote:
suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper.
Going off such a ridiculous comparison as that, I suppose the replays are the videos from the bank proving he was there acting in a suspicious fashion.
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On June 05 2012 19:11 shadymmj wrote:
suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper.
HAHAHA perfectly spoken :D theres no prove
I dont know if he cheated or not but all this "evidences" presented here are no prove for me innocent till proven guilty for me.
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On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:
I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
This.
The way this has been handled on TL is an absolute disgrace.
Innocent or guilty, this should have been handled more graciously than through an online lynch mob.
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On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest that no player of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for the team to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for another team. That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies for other sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, which is close to a supra-team body), then we need a place where members of the community come together and publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here.
And the team is a bad investigator. The team, or anyone else having any relation to spades, should never be a part of neither investigation nor ruling.
+ Show Spoiler +
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This is turning into quite a clusterfuck.
The mans carrier is over.
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On June 05 2012 19:11 shadymmj wrote:
suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper.
That analogy is just plain false though. We're talking about exactly the same person here. And there's quite a bit more evidence.
And hey, you're part of the newspaper too. So holier than thou attitude probably isn't the best to have.
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On June 05 2012 19:15 DarkEnergy wrote:
This is turning into quite a clusterfuck.
The mans carrier is over.
When HotS gets here, everyone's carriers are over!
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On June 05 2012 19:14 lost_artz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:11 shadymmj wrote:
suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper. Going off such a ridiculous comparison as that, I suppose the replays are the videos from the bank proving he was there acting in a suspicious fashion.
what the replays are, in this case, amount to pure speculation.
look my point i'm trying to make is not whether this guy is probably guilty or innocent. the point is that nobody can say it with a degree of certainty. when you are uncertain, best to leave it unsaid (and locked).
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I genuinely don't care if Spades did hack or not. I just heavily dislike the dramatic way this thread has been handled from the beginning, leading to terrible affirmative reddit threads ala "SC2 got its first pro hacker" yesterday, or "Judge ROOTCatz verdict: Guilty" today.
If I accused the OP of having touched the genitals of my daughter, whether he'd end up guilty or innocent, he would be suspect in the collective consciousness for the rest of his life. And that's why in my humble opinion public witch hunting is uncivil, immature and dangerous.
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On June 05 2012 19:07 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:21 mTwTT1 wrote:
everyone wants to throw spades under the bus because its the easy thing to do but i feel like he still deserves a fair case.. i mean even fucking murderers have a defence team, why should this be any different? i formulated a few of my opinions based off of what i understood the most which is gameplay but i want to hear different views on the matter, u guys should start exploring different aspects/views so we can diversify our knowledge base For this there should be a jury no? His team WW? Just a thought if we were going to go through some kind of process like this
Well, not quite, we'd select neutral players to evaluate the games and based on that take action. The "judge" should be the admins/team, they're the ones with the power to act, but the "jury" needs to be neutral.
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So this thread should have stayed closed at the first lock. Tough call for the mods, but I'm in favour of leaving the drama and pitchforking for le reddit.
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EPT
