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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 19:32 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote +all I see in this thread is a 1 post guy making a thread, never updating it, never replying to the thread with recent join date saying that some pro cheated based on his circumstantial evidence...
why is this thread even open? the guy who posted the OP should be banned on all of his accounts since all he wanted to create with this thread is drama Last edit: 2012-06-05 19:20:58
Lol. So many idiots on this thread. The OP is not a bad guy. He's just a concerned citizen who wants to get to the bottom of something that looks like hacking. He showed conclusive video evidence. Stop spouting whiny bullshit and watch the replays.
Personally the fact that it is a one-poster suggests that it is a smurf account, deliberately made from a different IP than their main acc. This is so that in the event that the allegations are proven false, or atleast discredited, their name won't be held accountable for it. Additionally, the fact that the OP has gone completely MIA since it was made (still on 1 post, no edits) suggests that they are trying to hide as much as possible about their true identity.
EDIT: Also, upon further thought, I believe that the fact that the OP is concealing their identity means that they themselves weren't 100% convinced that Spades was a hacker, otherwise there would be no risk in putting their name to the post.
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On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP.
You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades.
Your points in order:
A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free.
B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public.
C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
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On June 05 2012 19:33 Imbu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:31 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
Alot of talk about ruining his career, his official fanclub has 4 members. What career? It doesn't matter how many fans he has. He is a professional gamer, a person on a salary to compete. He might not have had the brightest future, but he still deserved the right to try, instead of his current situation where he has no chance at all.
Deserved? He's a known hacker with past experience. From everything I've read so far there's substantial evidence for both sides of the argument and definitely favors the guilty side. How can you say 'deserved' before anything has been proven/disproven
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all the talk about his career being ruined is a little exagerrated.. like mentioned in the thread, spades is now a household name, which he wasnt yesterday. if he performes well and playes games where he isnt hacking all this could actually turn out to be great for his career.
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Well from reading this thread I just want to say I hope none of you guys ever get to work with law enforcement or be in a jury.
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On June 05 2012 19:31 Imbu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:23 Defacer wrote:On June 05 2012 19:05 Imbu wrote:On June 05 2012 18:57 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 18:52 Defacer wrote:
TL should ask themselves: is this how Pro's and Teams should police themselves? Would TL allow one of their own players to undergo this level of scrutiny?
This is probably the best question, because I think we all know the answer. Personally I, like you am quite dissappointed by how TL mods have handled this. All it takes is a pro with a grudge(no idea if Illusion has a grudge, but my point is that it only takes one pro which might not like the accused) and you open the thread up again and throw Spades under the bus. You should give the team some time to go over those replays, Spades to get some time to put up a well written response to this accusation and most of all, fix the OP and remove all these incredibly stupid places where the OP says he thinks spades is doing something fishy, which is actually quite natural to all. The only problem is that in the current SC2 community, there are two major places where one can make a statement, TL and Reddit. As long as the topic is active on one of those two sites, the issue will never go away (if TL had closed the Destiny thread, he still would have had the same repercussions from the Reddit threads). Similarly, as I've mentioned before, if someone from TL were to have similar accusations thrown against them, the number of people who actually would take the time to analyze the replays would increase exponentially. This is not a question of favorites, but rather that Spades is an easy target because very few people hold any previous opinion towards him and is the "map hacking pro" that people have been looking for in the past weeks. On a final note, TL.net and TL are different enough that I'm confident the thread would have stayed open if it involved a TL player and similar circumstances occurred (ie. Another professional came out saying that the allegations are probably true). I hope that day never comes. There are threads that should run wild and free and threads that should be heavily modded. What makes TL -- and the SC2 community overall -- so special is that Pro's actually communicate with the fans and the online community. Allowing a player to be put on trial in the public square by an anonymous accuser, regardless of the evidence, is simply a bad precedent to set for the community. I think it's very disingenuous and irresponsible for TL to pretend they can just be an non-existent third party in this discussion. They should either get involved in verifying or championing the legitimacy of the claim or shut down the thread, due to it's seriousness. They're basically allowing another team's player to be ruined professionally on their website. I hope the mods know what their doing because it's a reflection of TL's position and how they believe the community should police players. To be fair, TL.net is doing what it normally does in trying to verify the legitimacy of these claims, leaving it to the pros to try and discuss a result. However, as TT1 mentioned earlier, a lot of pros don't really care about this type of drama, and if they reach their own conclusion, they're not going to be posting it around (imagine if they're wrong how much it would hurt them). I agree with you however that TL.net needs to do something for these type of threads, some type of policy. In the past too many of these threads explode too quickly before anyone can have the chance to figure out the facts, and it reaches a point where facts no longer matter and a verdict has already been handed out. And finally, I do agree with you that what makes Team Liquid and SC2 so special in my heart is that accessibility of the professionals. But with current number of witchhunts, it does seem that this relationship is starting to change. I guess at the end of the day, there is no way for TL to change what has already happened in this thread. But I hope in light of this and the Destiny/Orb threads, some type of policy is enacted. TeamLiquid.net has become the hub of StarCraft, and as such, I feel they are handed the responsibility of enacting a policy.
Well to be fair - in the orb thing, people went full retard and called the sponsors first thing they did, even though the team manager of EG told people to wait until they had the situation under control. That's mainly why it was such a bad thing.
I really do hope none's done the same thing in this case.
Imo cheats must be made known though, and making a thread is the best way to do so. It might be a good idea to lock it though.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either..
What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known.
If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such.
This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
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On June 05 2012 19:23 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:05 Imbu wrote:On June 05 2012 18:57 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 18:52 Defacer wrote:
TL should ask themselves: is this how Pro's and Teams should police themselves? Would TL allow one of their own players to undergo this level of scrutiny?
This is probably the best question, because I think we all know the answer. Personally I, like you am quite dissappointed by how TL mods have handled this. All it takes is a pro with a grudge(no idea if Illusion has a grudge, but my point is that it only takes one pro which might not like the accused) and you open the thread up again and throw Spades under the bus. You should give the team some time to go over those replays, Spades to get some time to put up a well written response to this accusation and most of all, fix the OP and remove all these incredibly stupid places where the OP says he thinks spades is doing something fishy, which is actually quite natural to all. The only problem is that in the current SC2 community, there are two major places where one can make a statement, TL and Reddit. As long as the topic is active on one of those two sites, the issue will never go away (if TL had closed the Destiny thread, he still would have had the same repercussions from the Reddit threads). Similarly, as I've mentioned before, if someone from TL were to have similar accusations thrown against them, the number of people who actually would take the time to analyze the replays would increase exponentially. This is not a question of favorites, but rather that Spades is an easy target because very few people hold any previous opinion towards him and is the "map hacking pro" that people have been looking for in the past weeks. On a final note, TL.net and TL are different enough that I'm confident the thread would have stayed open if it involved a TL player and similar circumstances occurred (ie. Another professional came out saying that the allegations are probably true). I hope that day never comes. There are threads that should run wild and free and threads that should be heavily modded. What makes TL -- and the SC2 community overall -- so special is that Pro's actually communicate with the fans and the online community. Allowing a player to be put on trial in the public square by an anonymous accuser, regardless of the evidence, is simply a bad precedent to set for the community. I think it's very disingenuous and irresponsible for TL to pretend they can just be an non-existent third party in this discussion. They should either get involved in verifying or championing the legitimacy of the claim or shut down the thread, due to it's seriousness. They're basically allowing another team's player to be ruined professionally on their website. I hope the mods know what their doing because it's a reflection of TL's position and how they believe the community should police players.
The irony of your nickname is much appreciated by the way, haha
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On June 05 2012 19:40 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
all the talk about his career being ruined is a little exagerrated.. like mentioned in the thread, spades is now a household name, which he wasnt yesterday. if he performes well and playes games where he isnt hacking all this could actually turn out to be great for his career.
It was also mentioned in the thread that it is just as hard to prove that he didn't hack as it is to prove he did hack. Short of an FPVoD showing his legitimacy, or hacks being found on his computer (or equivalent), there will always be a portion of the community who believes he is guilty or not guilty, meaning his reputation will remain significantly tarnished, thereby reducing the amount of teams (if any) which will have him as a player.
EDIT: Also, as I mentioned in my post at the top of the page, the OP is most likely a known figure in the community (on the level of spades prior to this), and in my opinion if they were found to have made this accusation whilst not being 100% sure of Spades hacking, then they should be treated as badly as a hacker (this is even if Spades is later found to be a hacker using tools/analysis not utilised by the OP)
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On June 05 2012 19:39 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:33 Imbu wrote:On June 05 2012 19:31 MyXoMoPBL wrote:
Alot of talk about ruining his career, his official fanclub has 4 members. What career? It doesn't matter how many fans he has. He is a professional gamer, a person on a salary to compete. He might not have had the brightest future, but he still deserved the right to try, instead of his current situation where he has no chance at all. Deserved? He's a known hacker with past experience. From everything I've read so far there's substantial evidence for both sides of the argument and definitely favors the guilty side. How can you say 'deserved' before anything has been proven/disproven
He is a past hacker, and our community is notorious for doing nothing in the past towards such people. They may be labeled a hacker, but at the same time are still given the rights of every player in being able to attend tournaments (back in the day).
Right now, although the majority of the thread favors guilty verdict, there is no definitive statement from either his team WW or from any other source (pros would count as evidence, not a final verdict). Plenty of previous hackers/cheaters in BW were given as second chance in SC2 (Dimaga, TT1, Haypro), and for better or worse, the overall consensus of the community was to give professionals a second chance in SC2. Like every other professional, regardless of what Spades did in BW, he should be given the same chance.
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On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome.
Edit: last post from me for a while
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On June 05 2012 18:55 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 18:44 Thylacine wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward. Why is that a problem? It happens with anonymous tips to newspapers about stories or to the police about crimes all the time? If the option to remain anonymous wouldnt exist, a lot of stuff would never reach the surface. It might be cowardly, but hardly something to get upset over, nor something to take into account when discussing the topic.
Problem is, at least from my point of view, that the OP just made one post and that's it. He hasn't bothered to reply once more in this thread, considering the shitstorm he created, which would be nice. And doesn't the defendant has the right to face his accuser? I would like to hear more from OP and why he created this thread. Was it just to spite Spades or his moral demanded that he does that? If it was moral than it's funny that he used other/new account to do that.
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On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity.
I think when he is asking for the identity, he means towards the accuser, so regardless if its actually the OP is a smurf or a proxy, it is significant to know who is making this claim. A claim like this is huge, and doing so without your real ID is cowardly at best.
Imagine if at the end of the day we find Spades to be innocent, and then what happens? The actual accuser gets nothing while Spades still loses his career. Now that hardly seems fair.
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I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
suppose a robbery happened on high street, with a 100 bucks stolen in cash by a tall man.
2 hours later a tall man was found wandering on the next street, who happened to have a past record of robbery, about a 100 bucks in his wallet, and no alibi. the next day his name appears in bold headlines in the papers: "SENSATIONAL! This man could have robbed a store last night!"
and TL is the newspaper.
Are the 100 dollars in his wallet supposed to represent the fact his replays are suspicious ? It's very common to have money on oneself (unless you meant he has exactly 100 ?).
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On June 05 2012 17:58 chaokel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Very nicely found, and it is a good example of how something can seem condemning and proof when in fact there are other factors at play. Which is why all this bandwagonning is just rediculous in my eyes, maybe he hacked or maybe he didn't but jumping to conclusions so quickly only serves to hurt your position (if you have to go back on something you earlier relied on as evidence) as well as hurts the player with a lot of negative feeling generated from things that arent proven yet.
Also @Etheral - you should read threads you link, more then just one post. I read that thread before the mod note about it, I actually tried it on in sc2gears before just quoting it and realized what you did. Sc2 gears DOES NOT put fake actions in, at least in the sense it talked about in the post you linked. The guy who posted that in that thread was WRONG - he didn't account for time normalization. When you unchecked that it was fine, in that in the 20 second period where in the replay he was doing no options...guess what, you open in sc2 gears and there are no actions! What a fucking trip right? If I sound angry it's because you could have easily verified this like I did, instead of reposting it like a fucking monkey, that now 20 people will probably never realize you're wrong and think Spades is a maphacker forever.
I downloaded some maphacks and ran them vs AI and looked at my replays - when I use camera lock my apm drops to 0. Spades APM only drops to 0 at one time through the 7 games, and I can imagine he tabbed out or something. Iirc he was waiting on money for a depot, so maybe he stopped spamming. No matter how fast I tried to look into computers base in fog of war with camera lock on (there's a shortcut in the one I used where middleclicking turns on camera lock), my apm would always drop to 0.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hQOMZ.png)
Once I start spamming, can you spot the two times I used camera lock to look into fog of war?
EDIT: My replay runs to 2:13 - I think the tl image resize cuts it off a bit so open it in a new tab to see the whole picture
If anything, with the map hacks on I could already see the minimap so I didn't need to look enemies base to see his army movement. But always having the right counters means looking at minimap, which I'm pretty sure he didn't (or he could have used production tab on second thought), if he used the same maphacks I downloaded (just a quick google, won't post link). Also, given that Spades was caught of position tons of times and lost, I'm more inclined to believe him.
I'm glad most of you fucking like to destroy people and bandwagon and maybe I'm being naive when I believe him, but I'd rather be naive and wrong most of the time in thinking people aren't hacking then be wrong in thinking they are one time.
tl:dr - Spades could have been maphacking. I don't offer proof either way. I'm saying Etherals shit was wrong, and as a disclaimer, I trust Spades.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
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On June 05 2012 19:48 Imbu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity. I think when he is asking for the identity, he means towards the accuser, so regardless if its actually the OP is a smurf or a proxy, it is significant to know who is making this claim. A claim like this is huge, and doing so without your real ID is cowardly at best. Imagine if at the end of the day we find Spades to be innocent, and then what happens? The actual accuser gets nothing while Spades still loses his career. Now that hardly seems fair.
Who cares if its cowardly? The OP was right we should all thank him. Dont you understand how much dmg Spades has done to the scene and his further denial just fucks us even more. You can not prove this 100% but seriously anyone with half a brain can see all these little things just dont add op. All the evidence point towards the verdict guilty. And the fact that people are still defending him are indeed troublesome.
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On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic.
Oh please. 1 replay is enough.
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EPT
