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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:03 ETisME wrote:On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic. 1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker? I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no?
basic math.. a large sample makes for less variance
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On June 05 2012 20:05 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:56 crxer wrote:
from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community. And you are? and your credibility is? Saying something over the internet without any proof, how do you expect anyone to believe you? lol.
i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here...
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On June 05 2012 19:58 FaRess wrote:
I'm not going to watch the replays or give my opinion about him being a hacker or not since my game knowledge and my hack knowledge on SC2 is poor or even non existent for the hacking part, but I just want to clarify something, The argument consisting of "look there he gets dropped and don't react, he can't be cheating" is completely stupid if you have any knowledge about hack, I have been part of anti cheat communities on other games for several years and the most common thing in hacking, is the Turn ON/OFF as much as possible to confuse people that might analyze the replay, on top of that I would like to add to a comment that TT1 made, saying that you need to watch 100 replays to prove he is guilty, it's completely false and it has never been like that in any fucking gaming community, saying that what the OP posted is not enough or not conclusive is fair, but telling people that it needs to be proved on 100 fucking replays is stupid to stay polite.
Exactly, its so annoying to go thru 100 replays to have to prove to everyone definitively that someone is hacking when the fcking hacker is really good too and knows exactly how to disguise it but everyone that plays against him at a high level knows for sure and stuck in this situation. Makes me glad to not be a competitive player anymore. Spades is going to have friends in the progaming community that will back him too. Illusion and Katz wouldn't be going through all this if they didn't already know 100%, but I'm sure everyone will give them crap about this until they get like one definitive thing that is proof which is going to be impossible to find since Spades knows how important it is to make sure something like that doesn't appear. I feel so bad for the people that have to play against him because after awhile when someone is always at the right place at the most crucial times with no information it just becomes so obvious, but only to the players and there probably won't be proof.
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On June 05 2012 19:59 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:57 Tump wrote:On June 05 2012 19:55 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:46 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity. I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome. Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way. The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact. On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote:
I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ? He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one. Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet. True, which can be explained by what he said. He was already late, so didn't want to wait any further and therefore just scanned even before his SCV had arrived. I mean, I don't like Spades position in this one but I guess that one could be explained that way, though it's somewhat odd indeed.
But the spawn position wasn't known. It's a 50/50 shot whether the scan will actually see anything. I think that was the point, that he scanned the correct base without knowing if his opponent was actually there or not.
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On June 05 2012 20:02 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:55 Benjamin99 wrote:On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic. Stop being a fucking internet lawyer. Open you eyes listen to the pro´s watch the replay´s. Listen to what Illusion,Catz,Drewbie,TT1 sayd on there stream listen to what Merz sayd. There is pleanty of evidence this isnt a witch hunt this is exposing a cheater and im glad we are doing this. You have todo everything in you power to protect the competive scene There is no evidence, though. There's nothing in these replays that says "Oh, that's definitely a hack, there's no doubt", such as CC's automatically using MULEs or SCV's being produced, because all the "evidence" as you call it can be coincidental, and thus, never definitive. Face it, you can't prove anything unless in-game actions are made that are not issued by Spades.
Ofcourse there is no 100% solid evidence becuase we dont got the tools to find out completly. But there are so many things that just doesnt add up.
The biggest for me are 32.50 on Tal darim how in gods name do you explain that? Also another strange thing in the entire serie vs Lucifron not once do he click in the fog of war but on his normal replays he do that like 10 times in each game. Explain it? You cant
Catz.Drewbie,Ilusion,TT1 went over so much stuff yesteday that i was amased by the shit that happend.
And if you look at his past then it really are a no brainer. He cheated and he did that to make a name form himself by beating one of the best players in the foreign scene today.
I hope he burns and it really bothers me people are still defending him dont you understand how dangerious this is? This little shit has basically destroyed any online competive play
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:07 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 20:03 ETisME wrote:On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic. 1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker? I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no? basic math.. a large sample makes for less variance
Exactly, a small sample size is not statistically significant and one can't draw conclusions from it.
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On June 05 2012 20:05 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:56 crxer wrote:
from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community. And you are? and your credibility is? Saying something over the internet without any proof, how do you expect anyone to believe you? lol.
Well his opinions are more valid than anyone elses as he actually knows how hacks work. Asking a pro player to try and distinguish whether a person is hacking or not is kind of pointless as they don't even know what to look for.
Yeah the lock screen thing, we got it, but there might be more to it than that.
Am I missing something here?
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On June 05 2012 18:43 AA.spoon wrote:
I watched the taldarim game, because the op seemed to make the most valid poitns in that game.
Only two things seemed dubious to me.
The hellions at 16:30 He hides a group of Hellions at the 9 expansion, at 16:44 his camera gets frozen on the border of the fog of war, to spot LucifroN's army comming that way, he tries to hide the hellions better, so that if LucifroN moved to the xel'naga he didn't spot the hellions. He then realises LucifroN's army is gonna come that way for a drop instead of going to the xel'naga and he runs away with all his hellions, miracly avoiding LucifroN's army.
Here's what I believe happens. He chases the medis away from his base, he moves the hellions to 9 to make sure they don't circle around and drop immediately back into his base - he can't be hiding them because they move to 9 as LucifroN flies over, then he knows he has to remake workers for all the ones that just got killed, sees 3 Scvs sitting at his base at 16:40 with another about to come out
![[image loading]](http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9829/scspades1.jpg)
Gets them mining, resets that base's rally to the mins, and then goes back to the Hellions. Considering three were deep in the red what could he have hoped to kill with them in that spot without losing all of them? Two or three marines?
at 32:50 when he starts to defend against a drop in his main he hasn"t seen yet.
Both these can be attributed to game sense/luck to be honest.
What gets me about the 32:50 'evidence' is that it was as bad as pulling teeth to get people to admit that a scan catches blue in the mini-map at 32:30 and no one seems to notice that LucifroN attacked that same spot 4 times previous in the game, scanned it twice in the minute before that last drop, or that Spades rallies his army to his natural, not to the drop location, moving his tanks up [the same direction he last saw the blue army at the bottom heading] leaving a third unprotected that was mined out.
Here's a pic of the supposed rally to the unseen totally unpredictable attack at 32:50:
![[image loading]](http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4729/scspades2.jpg)
Spades is supposed to ignore the 4 previous drops to that location that game, the blue he could see from the scan at 32:30, the movement of rest of the army, and leave his tanks in place to guard a mined out 3rd rather than join his army and protect his supply and production.
It may be evidence he is not a great player but evidence of hacking? meh.
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On June 05 2012 20:08 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:59 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:57 Tump wrote:On June 05 2012 19:55 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:46 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity. I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome. Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way. The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact. On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote:
I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ? He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one. Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet. True, which can be explained by what he said. He was already late, so didn't want to wait any further and therefore just scanned even before his SCV had arrived. I mean, I don't like Spades position in this one but I guess that one could be explained that way, though it's somewhat odd indeed. But the spawn position wasn't known. It's a 50/50 shot whether the scan will actually see anything. I think that was the point, that he scanned the correct base without knowing if his opponent was actually there or not.
Yes I know, but again that can be attributed to stupid luck right? The point is, his SCV went to the other base so if his scanned missed his SCV would gather the intel he was looking for. I don't agree with this decision (seems very wasteful to scan and pray you have the right base), but it could have been what went through his mind...
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Its been awhile since I've played against Spades, but when we were both on Inflow I never suspected him of maphacking or cheating. I haven't checked out the replays yet though.
Either way, the situation kind of sucks. Too much witchhunt mentality.
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I hope Tyrael will bring justice and wisdom to this matter.
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On June 05 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:03 ETisME wrote:On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic. 1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker? I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no?
TT1 used 100 replays as a standard for borderline acceptable play. In the showmatch Spades made some rookie moves that a pro player wouldn’t make because they would be punished hard, so hard that it would mean instant loss, and after playing 5000 games in practice your brain tells you not to do these ridiculously gambles. But in this showmatch Spades does it a lot. Especially in the TDA game.
Maybe Spades was feeling lucky that game, therefore we should watch 100 games and see how he does act there.
But there is just so many shit only in that TDA game that I wonder why we call it borderline acceptable. And that is 1 game out of 7. But I guess some people also win the lottery.
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On June 05 2012 20:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:07 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 05 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 20:03 ETisME wrote:On June 05 2012 19:50 Teoita wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Benjamin99 wrote:
I cant belive people are still arguing if he is a hacker or not. Really? Open you eyes plz and study the replays listen to what other pro telling you, look at his past and its pretty conclusive.
This is simply a case of an unknown player trying to make a name for himself by beating a top foreigner player and instead of working hard like others do he decide to take an easy road. Its sad and I really hope our community burn him. If this isnt dealt with in a serious manner it could ruin our competitive scene.
No it's fucking not conclusive. 100 replays are conclusive, a bo7 isn't. It's this kind of mentality that causes these witch hunts to be so outright idiotic. 1 replay that shows he hacks is pretty enough evidence? or is there a ratio requirement to be called a maphacker? I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no? basic math.. a large sample makes for less variance Exactly, a small sample size is not statistically significant and one can't draw conclusions from it.
We're not doing random polling here. We're trying to decide if he hacked in this particular showmatch. I don't think sample size is really relevant here.
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On June 05 2012 20:09 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:05 NovemberstOrm wrote:On June 05 2012 19:56 crxer wrote:
from a retired hacker, yes i used every single hack in this game know exactly how everythign works and helped with the creation of some of the aspects. if he is hacking which (I DO NOT THINK HE DOES I ANALYZED EVERY REP), He is using A really good hack there are 2 types of camera locks one you hold the middle mouse button. IT LOCKS the camera where you press it i watched the replays it IS NOT LIKE THAT. That''s inot how it works ... .Camera lock works also by pressing it and the camera is fuly locked but moves around it wont ever stay in one place none of them work this way..., thing is the one mouse button is the one everyone uses its 3 seconds.
I also talked to a developer of the damn thing it is not how it works. It locks the screen and moves it around to tirck that we are actually macroing. Also he has a full production tab if he does hack he has no need to look at everything becuse he also has a minimap.... I dont know this kid i dont care about him but i had to tell you guys i dont think hes hacking and if feel bad for him. I as a reformed former hacker and its sad people can't give this guy a break, if he hacked i would be the first to say OMG HEH hacks, IMPA hacks etc this guy does not. I also stopped because eventually it makes you play like shit too reliant not knowing how to scout at all. It is a big advantage yes but it will not improve your play so to all the hackers readinfg this stop hacking please its gonan make you worse and ruin the community. And you are? and your credibility is? Saying something over the internet without any proof, how do you expect anyone to believe you? lol. Well his opinions are more valid than anyone elses as he actually knows how hacks work. Asking a pro player to try and distinguish whether a person is hacking or not is kind of pointless as they don't even know what to look for. Yeah the lock screen thing, we got it, but there might be more to it than that. Am I missing something here?
That is incorrect. A pro player (or just a high level player in general) can tell when someone is reacting in suspicious ways.
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Scanning the right base is such stupid evidence... Have you ever scanned before and got lucky? Using the scan as evidence is like saying that every pro who gets a lucky scan and see's tech or something coming inboud(dts, burrowed infestors) should be viewed as hackers?
The complete lack of common sense on this thread is pitiful.
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I just watched the first couple of minutes of catz analysis and I think the reason Spades always went back to his factory/starport is because he has BOTH hotkeyd on 1 single hoktey, on 4. Spades has his rax on 3 and factory/starport on 4. When I offrace Terran I use the same hotkeys and I also always go to my factory/starport to click on them when building units out of them. I basically double tap 4 to go to factory and then manually click at the starport because I dislike using TAB to switch between factory/starport.
I don't know for sure but thats 1 way to explain why he constantly goes back to his factory/starport...
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On June 05 2012 20:11 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:08 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On June 05 2012 19:59 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:57 Tump wrote:On June 05 2012 19:55 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:46 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity. I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome. Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way. The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact. On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote:
I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ? He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one. Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet. True, which can be explained by what he said. He was already late, so didn't want to wait any further and therefore just scanned even before his SCV had arrived. I mean, I don't like Spades position in this one but I guess that one could be explained that way, though it's somewhat odd indeed. But the spawn position wasn't known. It's a 50/50 shot whether the scan will actually see anything. I think that was the point, that he scanned the correct base without knowing if his opponent was actually there or not. Yes I know, but again that can be attributed to stupid luck right? The point is, his SCV went to the other base so if his scanned missed his SCV would gather the intel he was looking for. I don't agree with this decision (seems very wasteful to scan and pray you have the right base), but it could have been what went through his mind...
Yeah could be luck sure. As explained on the CatZ et.al analysis though, is that that SCV will not get the information because of the marines present (and I think it's assumed (or known) that Spades would know they're there?).
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On June 05 2012 20:11 Masq wrote:
Its been awhile since I've played against Spades, but when we were both on Inflow I never suspected him of maphacking or cheating. I haven't checked out the replays yet though.
Either way, the situation kind of sucks. Too much witchhunt mentality.
I dont agree with that at all. Any progamer with a history like his should allways be looked at carefully. You just cant ignore it, becuase if more and more think they can get away with cheating our competive scene is dead..
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i wish to remain anonymous, just like the OP, but i know exactly how to hack correctly, this kid doesent hack camra lock does not work this way unless he is using a hack thats old as shit and he will be reset anyways. The new hacks coming out have some insane features if you want to ask questions ask away tahts the only credibility you will get. I don't care if my word isnt enough but ive had a year of sc2 hacking experience untill i quit i know how it all works i know how to cover it up as i have never been accused i knew impa hacked the second i watched his reps. A hacker knows others who do it IF spades is hacking he is the best hacker in the world, im talkig about 6+ years of hacking and mastering it. To master something ilke hacking without getting caught is EXTREMELY hard and the evidence against him just doesent cut it the whoel camera lock thing is stupid.
THE SCAN thign is viable cause ive done that before where i would scan right as my oponent makes a dark shrine etc, this was almost a year ago though hacks have evolved since then but who knows i am just saying the camera lock is not something you should judge on unless you download a hack and use it yourself test it and see.
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On June 05 2012 20:08 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:59 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:57 Tump wrote:On June 05 2012 19:55 dani` wrote:On June 05 2012 19:46 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 19:43 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 05 2012 19:37 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 18:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suospicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I posted in response to your first post already, I won't repeat those points. I am dismayed that you repeat those points, though, and merely make them worse. How could one even think that this should be kept under wraps and investigated by the team alone. It's in the team's interest thaplayer of theirs is even accused of cheating as that's probably the worst reputation hit a team can take. So there is massive incentive for thteam to either hide the results or remove the player silently, so that he is free to play free agent or for a That's exactly the reason why there are relevant bodies forr sports that deal specifically with cheating. As that's missing for SC2 at the moment (Savior was banned by Kespa, whh is close body), then we need a place where members of the community come publicly discuss the matter. TL is the best place for this as pretty much every pro and manager is here. I don't speak for every team, but it is our believe you'd have to be our of your damn mind to try to cover up some kind of hacking/cheating scandal. Trying to hide that someone is cheating is a complete nonissue because then a thread like this would follow regardless. The problem is that we as a team were never given the chance to investigate the issue before a lot of people had already made up their minds, therefor taking away the chance of an objective ans impartial review as well as Spades' right to defend himself to those claims. There was nothing he could've said or done in this thread that would've stopped the lynchmob. The truth didn't really matter anymore and his career would've been severely dented regardless. It is morally irresponsible to handle problems like this in the fashion they were handled here. You try to flip the issue, saying that a team wouldn't dare keep the issue under wraps, but you are actively advocating for measures that are beneficial for your team: time to review, moratorium on public discussion, etc. There is obviously bias because your own livelihood is at stake here. You should note a few things, though. No-one is going after your team. There are very few mentions of it in this thread. Secondly, the issue is not resolved. The verdict is not out yet, and only time will tell on what it will be. In this sense, TL is pretty well behaving. So, to say that the player was lynched is not accurate and casts a further shadow on your claim that a team would be able to provide objective review of hacking suspects. But you should actually respond to the big points raised by me and others: a) The way a team's incentive to avoid reputation loss influences the process. b) The alternative processes for hacker detection: TL, board of pros, independent body, board of team managers, etc. c) Your harassment of the OP. You capture the point perfectly, "the issue is not resolved" yet a mass of people has already drawn their conclusions, the damage is done. Regardless of what you and others find now, the consequences are devastating for Spades. Your points in order: A) attempting to hide evidence of cheating is futile, if you don't act someone else will. The risk/reward is not there. Hiding a cheater will lead to heavy credibility damage and in the end loss of sponsors/funding. Selling a player out is actually much easier and risk free. B) Sounds great, like I said right away, we request analysis from third parties as well. Having an organisation with authority just gives our investigation more credibility. This should however NOT be public. C) wait what? Asking for someone to stop hiding and stand behind what they post is as far as I went. I don't think that's too much to ask. We are ALL accountable for our actions. The both of us aren't posting on alts either.. What would the identity of the poster reveal to you? If he's an unknown person there's no point to it, and it's not going to be someone known. If I was a pro player who suspected someone to cheat and wanted to prove it I would jusk ask a friend who has no or little connection to starcraft to create an account and post this thread, no point in smurfs or proxys or different pcs or such. This is in no way a personal attack, your casting is part of what got me in sc2, watched tons of your stream in the early days and loved it. But I don't see why you ask for OP's identity. I'll admit that's mostly my sense of righteousness talking. If you post an accusation in my opinion it should be possible to hold you accountable for the outcome. Accountable in what way? I think the actions in the replay were suspicious enough to at least raise the issue. You can argue whether it had to be done in a thread like this or by contacting his team first, but I don't think the person who raises questions and provides his interpretation should be held 'accountable' in any way. The only thing I would criticize a bit is the OP should have worded things slightly less sensationalist. For example, he said something along the lines of 'Spades hacked in Brood War, guess what? He's back!', which is unnecessary and the latter part is of course up for debate, not a fact. On June 05 2012 19:55 Geiko wrote:
I can't read the whole thread, but how did Spades explain that he scanned the right base without knowing where it was ? He said something about being already late with scouting, so he sent his SCV to one base and scanned the other one. Which was funny, because if you watch the replay, the SCV on the way to scouting the base he didn't scan hadn't arrived yet. True, which can be explained by what he said. He was already late, so didn't want to wait any further and therefore just scanned even before his SCV had arrived. I mean, I don't like Spades position in this one but I guess that one could be explained that way, though it's somewhat odd indeed. But the spawn position wasn't known. It's a 50/50 shot whether the scan will actually see anything. I think that was the point, that he scanned the correct base without knowing if his opponent was actually there or not.
And sent his scv to the other. He basically he took a shot there, he was desperate to know if he could place a 3rd CC down and he got lucky(his words). Take from what you will, but if he was hacking, I don't see why he actually would've sent the SCV out and went to the wrong side.
If he was smart, he could've seen Luci's rines coming from across the map(when he killed the 1st rine with the scv), so he could've argued that he knew where Luci spawned from there and skipped the SCV, or in the least sent the SCV to the right location.
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EPT
