EPTPeople is innocent until proven otherwise... you know that right? There's no conclusive proof that he cheated, so he's innocent until then.
Yet you destroyed his career and made a fool out of the foreigner scene (yet again).
[?] Spades hacking? - Page 141
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
People is innocent until proven otherwise... you know that right? There's no conclusive proof that he cheated, so he's innocent until then. Yet you destroyed his career and made a fool out of the foreigner scene (yet again). | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:13 storkman wrote: Scanning the right base is such stupid evidence... Have you ever scanned before and got lucky? Using the scan as evidence is like saying that every pro who gets a lucky scan and see's tech or something coming inboud(dts, burrowed infestors) should be viewed as hackers? The complete lack of common sense on this thread is pitiful. Well the thing was that he scanned before he even knew the spawn position. You generally don't look for spawn position through scanning every base on the map until you find it. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:16 Aserrin wrote: Mob mentality is ridiculous. People is innocent until proven otherwise... you know that right? There's no conclusive proof that he cheated, so he's innocent until then. Yet you destroyed his career and made a fool out of the foreigner scene (yet again). It is literally impossible to 100% prove he hacks, whats your point? | ||
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Pantythief
Denmark657 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:09 Benjamin99 wrote: Ofcourse there is no 100% solid evidence becuase we dont got the tools to find out completly. But there are so many things that just doesnt add up. The biggest for me are 32.50 on Tal darim how in gods name do you explain that? Also another strange thing in the entire serie vs Lucifron not once do he click in the fog of war but on his normal replays he do that like 10 times in each game. Explain it? You cant Catz.Drewbie,Ilusion,TT1 went over so much stuff yesteday that i was amased by the shit that happend. And if you look at his past then it really are a no brainer. He cheated and he did that to make a name form himself by beating one of the best players in the foreign scene today. I hope he burns and it really bothers me people are still defending him dont you understand how dangerious this is? This little shit has basically destroyed any online competive play How is that weird to you, like what the hell, are you all in Silver League or something? I saw what CatZ went through, he thought it was "definitive proof" that a camera in a replay moved slower to a certain position, due to a scan being used away from his point of view. Apparently, CatZ doesn't know that if you use the "camera lock" in replays, it doesn't actually lock to your camera, but your actions, so when he uses a scan, it takes the screen 1,44 seconds to move from his original targeted units/structures to where he scanned. Also, I know a ton of people incl. myself who don't click in the Fog of War, because why would I?? Why can Spades not play the game the way he wants? Would you accuse me of hacking too if I told you I never do something outside the Fog of War as Terran? You have no idea if he's hacking or not because you have absolutely no idea what you're looking at when you see these replays. You really don't, face it, you're generic Witch Hunter number 217. I can give you a replay list of my last 100 games played and I can point out 1000 things that are coincidental and "doesn't add up", are you going to accuse my opponents of hacking, too? Because the things they do "don't add up?" | ||
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SolidMustard
France1515 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:09 Teoita wrote: Exactly, a small sample size is not statistically significant and one can't draw conclusions from it. How stupid is that... If one replay does include evidence of hacking, why would you bother watching more? Evidence is evidence. | ||
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:14 Kaitokid wrote: I just watched the first couple of minutes of catz analysis and I think the reason Spades always went back to his factory/starport is because he has BOTH hotkeyd on 1 single hoktey, on 4. Spades has his rax on 3 and factory/starport on 4. When I offrace Terran I use the same hotkeys and I also always go to my factory/starport to click on them when building units out of them. I basically double tap 4 to go to factory and then manually click at the starport because I dislike using TAB to switch between factory/starport. I don't know for sure but thats 1 way to explain why he constantly goes back to his factory/starport... just want to say be careful with what you say, based on watching only a couple of minutes because Catz and company in my opinion start the analysis kinda weak but their case got stronger and stronger unitl it was no doubt in my mind. | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:19 insanet wrote: just want to say be careful with what you say, based on watching only a couple of minutes because Catz and company in my opinion start the analysis kinda weak but their case got stronger and stronger unitl it was no doubt in my mind. Yea thats just my response to the 1 point Catz makes obviously. | ||
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Benjamin99
4176 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:18 Pantythief wrote: How is that weird to you, like what the hell, are you all in Silver League or something? I saw what CatZ went through, he thought it was "definitive proof" that a camera in a replay moved slower to a certain position, due to a scan being used away from his point of view. Apparently, CatZ doesn't know that if you use the "camera lock" in replays, it doesn't actually lock to your camera, but your actions, so when he uses a scan, it takes the screen 1,44 seconds to move from his original targeted units/structures to where he scanned. Also, I know a ton of people incl. myself who don't click in the Fog of War, because why would I?? Why can Spades not play the game the way he wants? Would you accuse me of hacking too if I told you I never do something outside the Fog of War as Terran? You have no idea if he's hacking or not because you have absolutely no idea what you're looking at when you see these replays. You really don't, face it, you're generic Witch Hunter number 217. I can give you a replay list of my last 100 games played and I can point out 1000 things that are coincidental and "doesn't add up", are you going to accuse them of hacking, too? Because the things they do "don't add up?" Thx for the insult! Btw any progamer will tell you this. You dont surdenly change you mechanics in a showmatch. When you play a 1000 games little things will start to become automatic. Clicking in the fog of war for scouting etc are one of those. Really you are pretty clueless if you dont understand this | ||
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storkman
United States157 Posts
Well the thing was that he scanned before he even knew the spawn position. You generally don't look for spawn position through scanning every base on the map until you find it. Did he not send an scv also? I didn't watch any of the replays but i did watch catz and illusion so i have some knowledge of the accusations but if he scanned cross positions that's fairly common as seeing that most maps force cross positions if he scanned close positions well maybe he was just taking a shot into the dark who knows | ||
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:17 Kaitokid wrote: It is literally impossible to 100% prove he hacks, whats your point? Learn to use 'literally' in the proper context. My point is that if you can't prove that he's cheating, don't kill his career and dignity like you're doing right now. There's not a single valid proof of him maphacking, just lots of speculation and personal interpretations. | ||
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crxer
United States16 Posts
I honestly want him to be caught hacking but from what i am seeing he just isnt besides the suspicious scans, and the other movements he does i am not at a hgih level right now just low masters ( havent hacked for almost a year). So i dont know why he does hat he does to me kit looks suspicious yes. But please drop the fog of war thing and the camera lock thing you guys are wrong go downlaod the hack and test it before you talk plz. Or find out how it works learn some code delphi c++ etc and see for yourself but don't accuse hased on that. Accuse based on his really weird descisions which i can't say anything about to me it seems hackerish not the other shit you guys mentioned, because i actually know its not how any hack works. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
Despite if Spades is, or isn't hacking, his image is ruined regardless. Everyone with a BW history like his, if anything like this pops up yet again, they are doomed regardless if they are innocent or not. So in a way, I do feel sorry for you Spades, while I am not taking a side in this matter, you have to believe and understand this can only be your fault. Not because you are defending yourself now, that you didn't do it, but because YOUR past came back to haunt you. If there is a way to clear yourself, do it, and DO it fast. Other wise you are doomed. I do not make a habit of accusing others, so I hope for the best for you Spades. | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:15 Benjamin99 wrote: I dont agree with that at all. Any progamer with a history like his should allways be looked at carefully. You just cant ignore it, becuase if more and more think they can get away with cheating our competive scene is dead.. It shouldn't be ignored, but it shouldn't have a 150 page thread of public discussion (within 24hr) with jimmy silver and johnny platinum calling him a hacker. What does this solve besides ruining his career? He's basically fucked either way now, even if he was innocent. A lot of players have dubious pasts, and even Mirhi/Artist? stated that things such as stream cheating is common practice within Korean pro envrionments, and their competitive scene isn't dead. Stop being so overly dramatic and think about your actions for half a second. | ||
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Cornix
United States220 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:18 SolidMustard wrote: How stupid is that... If one replay does include evidence of hacking, why would you bother watching more? Evidence is evidence. Because the process of finding 'map hacks' outside of a purely technical exploitation of the game rules (which has been discussed but never at any point shown) is about building up ridiculous coincidence and uncanny preparedness. Anyone can have a game that just goes their way and whatever assumptions they make on the incomplete information they're running off of are all right somehow, regardless of how stupid they would seem. Reading the whole picture out of incomplete information is actually one of the things a lot of pros are lauded for (in particular Nestea is known as the Professor because he constantly figures out what is going on). The only way to prove the type of things that are being brought up as hard fact and evidence from these replays is to have overwhelming numbers and examples, which quite frankly one best of 7 isn't enough, especially when a percentage of the points raised about those 7 replays can be dismissed as silly or easily explained in other ways. Edit: I also feel sad that extreme measures will be about the only way to ever prove him innocent at this point because nothing short of that will sway the masses who believe him guilty before a clear verdict has even been established... And by extreme I mean something like him sending his hard drive in to some third party lab and having it completely examined for hacks etc. | ||
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Diizzy
United States828 Posts
On June 05 2012 19:58 EtherealDeath wrote: Useful video Axeltoss made about the "Magic Scan" and how it's not quite so magical. edit - Basically, I think we can derive from this that what we see in game is not always what we see in replay. well this confirms the cameralock claims are false anyways | ||
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Pantythief
Denmark657 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:21 Benjamin99 wrote: Thx for the insult! Btw any progamer will tell say this. You dont surdenly change you mechanics in a showmatch. When you play a 1000 games little things will start to become automatic. Clicking in the fog of war for scouting etc are one of those. Really you are pretty clueless if you dont understand this Coming from a guy who apparently takes offense in what I just said, I think it's you who're pretty clueless and don't understand. And just for the record, a lot of progamers has commented on the thread, saying he doesn't hack. "You don't suddenly change your mechanics in a showmatch", well shit, buddy, he did, just like others have, if you're going to accuse Spades of hacking because he changes strategy during a showmatach, which to me sounds like something I would to confuse my opponent, I'd like you to accuse everyone else who does that, too. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:13 storkman wrote: Scanning the right base is such stupid evidence... Have you ever scanned before and got lucky? Using the scan as evidence is like saying that every pro who gets a lucky scan and see's tech or something coming inboud(dts, burrowed infestors) should be viewed as hackers? The best part is if it were wrong it can still be evidence of something stupid done intentionally to make people think he wasn't hacking. I watched a Day[9] vs Tasteless beta Starcraft showmatch where Tasteless on Metalopolis did a gold rush and after Day[9] easily stopped it and won he said he knew something was wrong because the timing of the scout from Tasteless implied he was close position but then the base wasn't there. I don't even know if LucifroN scouted in the game being discussed but little things that aren't obvious at all can give you a hunch. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
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Caryc
Germany330 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:16 Aserrin wrote: People is innocent until proven otherwise... you know that right? There's no conclusive proof that he cheated, so he's innocent until then. well you dont have to necessarily "proof" he hacked if there is no other logical possibility other than hacking. now those possiblities in sc2 might be luck,starsense,random chance... i personally am not convinced yet . strange stuff happens. | ||
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holycrapitsTony
United States330 Posts
On June 05 2012 19:55 Benjamin99 wrote: Stop being a fucking internet lawyer. Open you eyes listen to the pro´s watch the replay´s. Listen to what Illusion,Catz,Drewbie,TT1 sayd on there stream listen to what Merz sayd. There is pleanty of evidence this isnt a witch hunt this is exposing a cheater and im glad we are doing this. You have todo everything in you power to protect the competive scene The competitive scene doesn't need you to protect it, it needs people like you to stay out of it. All of this is speculation and only snowballing into something worse. | ||
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