EPT[?] Spades hacking? - Page 143
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Diizzy
United States828 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:43 Imbu wrote: Stephano similarly was thought to be a maphacker when he first started hitting the scene. yea remember his sick ladder run? never streamed it | ||
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THELEHGOTERRAN
United States1837 Posts
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defteH
United Kingdom134 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:48 Diizzy wrote: yea remember his sick ladder run? never streamed it Please be trolling. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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shaaw
Spain97 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
(see the post summing up all posts by sc2 professionals) But didn't Spades himself say that he never cheated in sc2? Or was that just some misunderstanding? | ||
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crxer
United States16 Posts
Read all of this guys i just fully watched every replay. I did hack for along time with beta probably close to to 1.5 years. I now think thisi s 50/50 some claims are wrong some aren't. I honestly do not know how to show credebility except, tell you guys that i did hack i know how they work, most hacks have camera lock, 3 views, greyed ou,t only you and oponent, and you see the whole map, most hackers use the greyed out view as you can see the fog of war still. THe advanced hacks have much better features taht will get you caught auto blink stalkers etc drop alert, yes you get pinged when the enemy drops you or other hacks say "enemy is loading dropship across the screen etc. Theres Unit alert which tells you if they are making certain units nydus wyrm alert there are so many features its disgusting. But most hackers are in the diamond range. I always scout and always let the drops come etc. But i also always counter what my opoennt is doing. When i hacked i liekd to copy their build order and make it better and counter them. Like i said i watched every game his gameplay=suspicious as fuck the 100% conculsion crap you guys are saying fog of war,, camera pauses=false, beileve me or don;t but dowload a mapahck and test it you will see. On all the other aspects please go ahead and accuse him of if you want because to me its suspicious laeaning towars hacking now that i rewatched very carefully, but my accusations are only from experience/circumstantial .Spades does suspicious moves of a hacker manty timesi n this replay, the scan is a thing hackers do all the time, the movement of his army is exactly how i move it, also it seems like he is using the auto rax hotkey or auto building hotkeys where you press a building and it autmatically hotkeys it without you clicking shift and whatever the building hotkey is. Just the way he moves is the exact way i do at a much lower level the way of a hacker so take what i said with a grain of salt and please review the way he gruops buildings. I if i have to prove that i am who i say i am i will. edit: another thign i noticed the suv scouting without looking at what he scouted for is what every single hacker does, the scout is a fake the scout is to amke people think its legit i always did it never looked at the suv and kept it alive just like he did. Man i am getting more and more convinced  | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:30 Kotreb wrote: I saw it. And i haven't commented about his innocence/being guilty. And since were mentioning the players analysis, did you not see Nerchio's one? See how it's easy to find the other/opposite side? And it matters to me. If you have the "balls" to call someone out, than you should also have the balls to defend your point and sty in the "argument" 'till the end. Not just make one post and be gone with the wind. I do agree that hacking needs to be taken seriously, but i do also believe that a man should stand behind his actions. If we go by that logic, what prevents me from creating new account, pick one game from, lets say, d.Apollo and accuse him for hacking (Apollo is used just as an example since i watched his stream yesterday and he's the first person i thought of, I'm not claiming that he hacks), and than just leave thread and wallow in all the drama i created. Besides, this is also credibility problem. Someone can get accused because he had bad/dubious past, but we should totally take word from some anonymous. Yes, I saw that the other pros were included now, but as far as I can see they haven't been able to conclude that he is positively, without a doubt hacking. So in this case i would very much like to hear once more from OP, especially since even some pros managed to prove that some of his conclusions were wrong. first, if you open such a thread you mark yourself for life. You will always be the guy who ruined Spades (especially if found not guilty), and even more so if you are on another team (or even LuzifroN himself) half of the people will find your evidence invalid because you have to be biased being on another team. Maybe the OP is a close friend or teammate of Spades who does not want to ruin what they have between them but he finds that this needs to get attention. In every case, the thread would most certainly derail and half of it would be about why the OP is full of shit. Posting anonymously fixes a lot of these issues, if not all of them. And even if the OP is not trustworthy, he still made a valid argument, put effort into finding direct evidence/hints that Spades was cheating (or what made him think Spades was cheating) and putting it all together in a decent post. In his title he does not claim that Spades is hacking, but instead he askes if he is (and his post is clearly the start of a discussion). So no, in my opinion he did everything correct in making this as much of a proper public discussion as possible while minimizing the collateral damage to himself (and to Spades). Sure, it would have been better for Spades (and maybe overall) if this was not made public first, but then again, this was his choice. So i ask everyone kindly to not talk about the OP anymore and focus on the discussion at hand, bringing valid arguments to the table. (i am not the OP for those who think they are oh so clever) And as for the discussion: From what i have seen so far, i feel like Spades did cheat in some way, but not necessarily maphack. Not moving the camera for 7-9 seconds could indicate a smart hack at work, but it might also be alt-tab to either change the song (i do that from time to time) or to stream cheat (him stream cheating would also into the profile one witness discribed in this thread from back when they were on the same team, even though that same witness got called out for his observation of Leenock supposedly aiding a Korean player at a MLG. But i am not sure which side to believe, the person that said the flawless MLG system would prevent such, or the doubt in my heart that knows that no system is flawless, especially one where only 5 minutes would have been enough for someone as good as Leenock to help his mate in between his games where he was allowed to stay in said area. But since it was in Korean, there is no real eye witness possible anyway, he might have made a joke about hitting on the other guy's girlfriend) | ||
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ETisME
12385 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:04 Teoita wrote: I know fuck all about either tvt nor hacking, but if tt1 says he needs to look at 100 or so replays to be sure about it, i think we should listen to his opinion no? yea, that means tt1 is trying to be sure of the hack. but if he has proven to be a maphacker, even if he had only done it for 1 game out of 100000000000000^99999999, that still means he is a hacker. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:36 SolidMustard wrote: Nerchio has been rumoured to be a hacker too so his "analysis" is to be looked at carefully, though Ahhh, ok. If we're going by rumors, than i also heard that Stephano's puppy which he carries to all the games and into the booth is really an alien hacking device, Losira is just a robot in human skin (that's why he has such crazy hands) and Idra's client is just pissed at him for not feeding him, hence he leaves without gg and in winnable situations. Yes, I deliberately used those unreal and crazy examples just to show the credibility of rumors about someone. Besides, there are plenty of reasons to start rumors about someone. Be it jealousy, frustration, "trolling" (modern word/excuse for being uneducated idiot) or it can simply be the truth. So i hope it's safe to say that the rumors are not to be trusted. | ||
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hxrsmurf
United States1 Post
When CatZ said that any Silver League player would check on their scout early game when it is in the enemies base, I agree with that. I don't let my Drone scout just go in and out of the base without moving my camera to it. I do not know what this "camera locking" business is about, but I kept in mind that Blizzard's replay system could be flawed. In recent discussions of maphacking, a way to see the Starcraft II map at any time through the fog-of-war (in the dark areas in a map), a player named Spades has been accused on the TeamLiquid Forum by an alias drolet. I tuned into the second half of ROOT.CatZ analysis of many replays, both provided by Spades himself and other sources. While watching the livestream of CatZ, I found that Spades may be a hacker, but I believe Spades is innocent until proven guilty. All the games could have been sick game sense and that is what I am defending Spades on. Pro players have seen the replays, however I believe some of the top players around the world have a huge bias against Spades and were out to get them. If you're looking for something to accuse someone of, you will see it. For instance, taking the odd Orbital Command Scans as cheats. I am not accusing any player of over-analysis or "out to get" Spades, but I believe there is no solid evidence, so far, to prove Spades guilty. Unfortunately this may ruin Spades' professional career. An example of "sick game sense" is in CoD 4 promod or Counter Strike Source. Some pro players just know the timings of everything and can guess where enemies are going, which routes, the timings, the spots to hide, etc. I know that is a lot different than a Real Time Strategy game, but I kept "sick game sense" in mind while watching CatZ analysis. I personally am on the border of whether or not Spades is a map-hacker, but innocent until proven guilty. | ||
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najreteip
Belgium4158 Posts
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
Discounting "magic scans" to replay error, I was surprised by: 1) Controlling his army while his screen was staring at a random place (possible by minimap, highly unlikely). 2) Scouting with an SCV and never looking at what it saw, yet still sending it back (really no reason to do this and his other VODs never show him scouting this way with just the minimap). Of course it's also possible that the replay is glitchy/corrupt, but that's what a large sample size is for. I'm waiting for more replays/evidence before passing personal judgement. Perhaps someone who has more knowledge of the hacks that are supposedly used could find a more reliable indicator of someone hacking a la TSL. | ||
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dacimvrl
Vatican City State582 Posts
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AmstAff
Germany949 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:48 CoR wrote: hope he doesnt become a new mistrzzz... everyone was sure he hacked never a proof he streamed everything later and played same as good and he was banned so long for i think no reason ... always so easy to destroy a player ... i would be sure spades hack if the op wouldnt be smurf but thats makes me think twice ... all should because smurfs cant say ANYTHING ... plz op tell us who you are pretty much this, but people ruined mistrzzz because of his stupid way to "communicate" imo and not because they thought that he really hacked. anyway spades hacked before so... stupid position for him. | ||
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NKB
United Kingdom608 Posts
On June 05 2012 21:01 najreteip wrote: Pleas take stuff like this to the teams before posting it on TL -.- I have to agree with this, it is better for it to be sorted out be the players team instead of by us. | ||
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insufficient
Germany33 Posts
On June 05 2012 20:52 Hypemeup wrote: Does ROOTdrewbie have history with Spades? Watching the VoD of judge CatZ he is so insanely biased it is unreal. He is as biased as Illusion because both are professional terran players and see the signs of maphacking much better than the average bronzejoe in this thread. I don't want to bash people in this thread or something, but besides the fog of war stuff there is much more to his gameplay that tells the professional players at the analysis that he is a maphacker. | ||
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VonDarkmore
Australia192 Posts
Replay 1 taldarim alter TvT + Show Spoiler + 10:40 that Spades missed the load up from what little vison he had left of his units death is pretty bad, the drop caught him off gaurd, he like most people was probly expecting hellions that is why he had his marines lined up, def no suspicous moves this game apart from not making turrents in TvT he had the same problem vs LucifroN also he never scanned at all in this TvT he plays reactivly to his opponent's scans I do this so I do not need to scan it is very effective knowing what your opponent is going to do by where they scan. Replay 2 Cloud Kingdom. TvZ + Show Spoiler + 6:30 his reaction no scv pull or anything because he was looking at his scan on the zerg expo, if he could see he would have reacted far better. also he is against infestors and never creates gosts or banshee he got terribly beaten in the first engagement all game he never attacks or goes near the bottem right zerg base, that would be taken out by 90% of Terrans in 5 minutes of it being up, if he hacked, he didnt hack the bottem of the map, cause not scouting that z base is terrible play. 28:00 his top left expansion competely ungaurded and no units en-route to help. and loses it, no sign of him knowing it was coming at all. Replay 3 Ohana TvZ + Show Spoiler + I don't want to make huge list on each game but i do watch each game completly and putting this much time into it is pretty gruelling. 10 minutes he has no turrents to stop mutalisks at all. replay 4 ohana TvP 13 minutes if spades was hacking he would have attacked far sooner he was 50 supply ahead against zealots an 2 collo with a 80 supply bio force thats gg straight up. Replay 5 Taldarim TvP + Show Spoiler + nothing even of note he just outmassed and A moved to the protoss who for some reason moved out with half a dozen zealots couple of sentries and 2 collo... after these 5 I am going to take a break, after 12 games, I see hardly any suspicious actions definitely none to say he hacks in these 12 games he makes some lucky moves but most people do but not enough to accuse him of hacking. | ||
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