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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 21:01 ketomai wrote:
Personally, watching the CatZ/Illusion/Drewbie/TT1 analysis, there is a mixture of some stretches and some really convincing evidence.
Discounting "magic scans" to replay error, I was surprised by:
1) Controlling his army while his screen was staring at a random place (possible by minimap, highly unlikely).
2) Scouting with an SCV and never looking at what it saw, yet still sending it back (really no reason to do this and his other VODs never show him scouting this way with just the minimap).
Of course it's also possible that the replay is glitchy/corrupt, but that's what a large sample size is for. I'm waiting for more replays/evidence before passing personal judgement.
Perhaps someone who has more knowledge of the hacks that are supposedly used could find a more reliable indicator of someone hacking a la TSL.
The biggest for me is the...Cloud Kingdom? Game where he unseiges all his tanks, then resieges just as Lucifron moves up his army, literally a second later; he barely moves the tanks after unsieging.
And, a perfect scan, cross spawns on Shakuras. He needed that to see the third CC, so he would have a reason to build his own.
And the fact that camera movement in his ladder packs is completely, completely different from the lucifron games. He uses the "minimap" way way way way more in the Lucifron games.
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This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago...
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On June 05 2012 20:55 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:30 Kotreb wrote:On June 05 2012 20:00 NovemberstOrm wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Kotreb wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Kreb wrote:On June 05 2012 18:44 Thylacine wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward. Why is that a problem? It happens with anonymous tips to newspapers about stories or to the police about crimes all the time? If the option to remain anonymous wouldnt exist, a lot of stuff would never reach the surface. It might be cowardly, but hardly something to get upset over, nor something to take into account when discussing the topic. Problem is, at least from my point of view, that the OP just made one post and that's it. He hasn't bothered to reply once more in this thread, considering the shitstorm he created, which would be nice. And doesn't the defendant has the right to face his accuser? I would like to hear more from OP and why he created this thread. Was it just to spite Spades or his moral demanded that he does that? If it was moral than it's funny that he used other/new account to do that. Did you not see all the testaments from the players? did you not see catz, illusion etc do the replay analysis? the evidence is quite obvious, it doesn't matter if the OP doesn't reply to his own thread since already other people have already looked at the situation and replays and have made a general consensus that he did cheat. Any and ALL hacking needs to be taken very seriously, it does not matter if he's being cowardly. I saw it. And i haven't commented about his innocence/being guilty. And since were mentioning the players analysis, did you not see Nerchio's one? See how it's easy to find the other/opposite side? And it matters to me. If you have the "balls" to call someone out, than you should also have the balls to defend your point and sty in the "argument" 'till the end. Not just make one post and be gone with the wind. I do agree that hacking needs to be taken seriously, but i do also believe that a man should stand behind his actions. If we go by that logic, what prevents me from creating new account, pick one game from, lets say, d.Apollo and accuse him for hacking (Apollo is used just as an example since i watched his stream yesterday and he's the first person i thought of, I'm not claiming that he hacks), and than just leave thread and wallow in all the drama i created. Besides, this is also credibility problem. Someone can get accused because he had bad/dubious past, but we should totally take word from some anonymous. Yes, I saw that the other pros were included now, but as far as I can see they haven't been able to conclude that he is positively, without a doubt hacking. So in this case i would very much like to hear once more from OP, especially since even some pros managed to prove that some of his conclusions were wrong. first, if you open such a thread you mark yourself for life. You will always be the guy who ruined Spades (especially if found not guilty), and even more so if you are on another team (or even LuzifroN himself) half of the people will find your evidence invalid because you have to be biased being on another team. Maybe the OP is a close friend or teammate of Spades who does not want to ruin what they have between them but he finds that this needs to get attention. In every case, the thread would most certainly derail and half of it would be about why the OP is full of shit. Posting anonymously fixes a lot of these issues, if not all of them. And even if the OP is not trustworthy, he still made a valid argument, put effort into finding direct evidence/hints that Spades was cheating (or what made him think Spades was cheating) and putting it all together in a decent post. In his title he does not claim that Spades is hacking, but instead he askes if he is (and his post is clearly the start of a discussion). So no, in my opinion he did everything correct in making this as much of a proper public discussion as possible while minimizing the collateral damage to himself (and to Spades). Sure, it would have been better for Spades (and maybe overall) if this was not made public first, but then again, this was his choice. So i ask everyone kindly to not talk about the OP anymore and focus on the discussion at hand, bringing valid arguments to the table. (i am not the OP for those who think they are oh so clever) And as for the discussion: From what i have seen so far, i feel like Spades did cheat in some way, but not necessarily maphack. Not moving the camera for 7-9 seconds could indicate a smart hack at work, but it might also be alt-tab to either change the song (i do that from time to time) or to stream cheat (him stream cheating would also into the profile one witness discribed in this thread from back when they were on the same team, even though that same witness got called out for his observation of Leenock supposedly aiding a Korean player at a MLG. But i am not sure which side to believe, the person that said the flawless MLG system would prevent such, or the doubt in my heart that knows that no system is flawless, especially one where only 5 minutes would have been enough for someone as good as Leenock to help his mate in between his games where he was allowed to stay in said area. But since it was in Korean, there is no real eye witness possible anyway, he might have made a joke about hitting on the other guy's girlfriend)
Well if you do start a thread like this which is serious in all of it's nature, you should stand behind your words. Not make one post and run. Anonymity doesn't solve anything, it just raises more questions. I do agree that it could derail, but if your case is solid and you have proof than your ID shouldn't matter, only evidence should. And about the possible Id of posters you named, it doesn't make much sense to be either of those options, but i'll presume that you used that just as an example so we should not dwell on it so much.
OP did made quality post, but there is one thing where you're wrong. He accuses Spades for hacking (not implying/hinting...straight up accusing) and the title was changed to current after several requests.
He only made sure that his name is not tarnished, not Spades. It's kinda counter logic to suggest otherwise since he accused him for hacking, hence his reputation is instantly tarnished while he walks aways clear.
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On June 05 2012 21:13 Kotreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 20:55 Cirqueenflex wrote:On June 05 2012 20:30 Kotreb wrote:On June 05 2012 20:00 NovemberstOrm wrote:On June 05 2012 19:48 Kotreb wrote:On June 05 2012 18:55 Kreb wrote:On June 05 2012 18:44 Thylacine wrote:On June 05 2012 10:50 ackbar wrote:On June 05 2012 10:38 mememolly wrote:On June 05 2012 10:34 Rowrin wrote:
Cant believe there are people questioning Spades credibility and not realizing the contradiction in taking the words of a guy with 1 post as law.
you have 47 posts, aside from the huge amount of irony this raises, do you think people should ignore you based of your low post count? The 1 post count the OP has probably means that he is a regular here who created a new account just to post this. I think that damages his credibility moreso than the actual quantity of posts.
He is accusing someone of cheating, he should put his name behind it. He is attacking someone else's reputation, yet he hides his identity so HIS reputation cant be taken into account (or damaged if he's wrong)? This shows a lack of character. Exactly my thoughts. The OP is a coward. Why is that a problem? It happens with anonymous tips to newspapers about stories or to the police about crimes all the time? If the option to remain anonymous wouldnt exist, a lot of stuff would never reach the surface. It might be cowardly, but hardly something to get upset over, nor something to take into account when discussing the topic. Problem is, at least from my point of view, that the OP just made one post and that's it. He hasn't bothered to reply once more in this thread, considering the shitstorm he created, which would be nice. And doesn't the defendant has the right to face his accuser? I would like to hear more from OP and why he created this thread. Was it just to spite Spades or his moral demanded that he does that? If it was moral than it's funny that he used other/new account to do that. Did you not see all the testaments from the players? did you not see catz, illusion etc do the replay analysis? the evidence is quite obvious, it doesn't matter if the OP doesn't reply to his own thread since already other people have already looked at the situation and replays and have made a general consensus that he did cheat. Any and ALL hacking needs to be taken very seriously, it does not matter if he's being cowardly. I saw it. And i haven't commented about his innocence/being guilty. And since were mentioning the players analysis, did you not see Nerchio's one? See how it's easy to find the other/opposite side? And it matters to me. If you have the "balls" to call someone out, than you should also have the balls to defend your point and sty in the "argument" 'till the end. Not just make one post and be gone with the wind. I do agree that hacking needs to be taken seriously, but i do also believe that a man should stand behind his actions. If we go by that logic, what prevents me from creating new account, pick one game from, lets say, d.Apollo and accuse him for hacking (Apollo is used just as an example since i watched his stream yesterday and he's the first person i thought of, I'm not claiming that he hacks), and than just leave thread and wallow in all the drama i created. Besides, this is also credibility problem. Someone can get accused because he had bad/dubious past, but we should totally take word from some anonymous. Yes, I saw that the other pros were included now, but as far as I can see they haven't been able to conclude that he is positively, without a doubt hacking. So in this case i would very much like to hear once more from OP, especially since even some pros managed to prove that some of his conclusions were wrong. first, if you open such a thread you mark yourself for life. You will always be the guy who ruined Spades (especially if found not guilty), and even more so if you are on another team (or even LuzifroN himself) half of the people will find your evidence invalid because you have to be biased being on another team. Maybe the OP is a close friend or teammate of Spades who does not want to ruin what they have between them but he finds that this needs to get attention. In every case, the thread would most certainly derail and half of it would be about why the OP is full of shit. Posting anonymously fixes a lot of these issues, if not all of them. And even if the OP is not trustworthy, he still made a valid argument, put effort into finding direct evidence/hints that Spades was cheating (or what made him think Spades was cheating) and putting it all together in a decent post. In his title he does not claim that Spades is hacking, but instead he askes if he is (and his post is clearly the start of a discussion). So no, in my opinion he did everything correct in making this as much of a proper public discussion as possible while minimizing the collateral damage to himself (and to Spades). Sure, it would have been better for Spades (and maybe overall) if this was not made public first, but then again, this was his choice. So i ask everyone kindly to not talk about the OP anymore and focus on the discussion at hand, bringing valid arguments to the table. (i am not the OP for those who think they are oh so clever) And as for the discussion: From what i have seen so far, i feel like Spades did cheat in some way, but not necessarily maphack. Not moving the camera for 7-9 seconds could indicate a smart hack at work, but it might also be alt-tab to either change the song (i do that from time to time) or to stream cheat (him stream cheating would also into the profile one witness discribed in this thread from back when they were on the same team, even though that same witness got called out for his observation of Leenock supposedly aiding a Korean player at a MLG. But i am not sure which side to believe, the person that said the flawless MLG system would prevent such, or the doubt in my heart that knows that no system is flawless, especially one where only 5 minutes would have been enough for someone as good as Leenock to help his mate in between his games where he was allowed to stay in said area. But since it was in Korean, there is no real eye witness possible anyway, he might have made a joke about hitting on the other guy's girlfriend) Well if you do start a thread like this which is serious in all of it's nature, you should stand behind your words. Not make one post and run. Anonymity doesn't solve anything, it just raises more questions. I do agree that it could derail, but if your case is solid and you have proof than your ID shouldn't matter, only evidence should. And about the possible Id of posters you named, it doesn't make much sense to be either of those options, but i'll presume that you used that just as an example so we should not dwell on it so much. OP did made quality post, but there is one thing where you're wrong. He accuses Spades for hacking (not implying/hinting...straight up accusing) and the title was changed to current after several requests. He only made sure that his name is not tarnished, not Spades. It's kinda counter logic to suggest otherwise since he accused him for hacking, hence his reputation is instantly tarnished while he walks aways clear.
Personally, I'd rather have the real name as well, but that doesn't matter one bit. At this point, we all have the replays, we're all making our decisions. Who the OP is is irrelevant.
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On June 05 2012 21:10 ggrrg wrote:
This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago...
He saw 2 units with a scan (basically) on TDA at 32:20.
Why would he wait 30 seconds before sending units over there? He doesn't react UNTIL the drop is just about to commence in his main. Call that lucky timing, but lucifron could've easily dropped right after 32:20, yet somehow 30 seconds later spades still "knows it's coming"
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On June 05 2012 21:15 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:10 ggrrg wrote:
This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago... He saw 2 units with a scan (basically) on TDA at 32:20. Why would he wait 30 seconds before sending units over there? He doesn't react UNTIL the drop is just about to commence in his main. Call that lucky timing, but lucifron could've easily dropped right after 32:20, yet somehow 30 seconds later spades still "knows it's coming"
I don't think that's proof. Yes, the scan is random, and lucky. But Lucifron had dropped that spot two or three times prior. While I probably wouldn't do it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, when an army is outside your third, to scan it quickly to see if he's trying to distract you.
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Seems there is no actuall proof of Spades hacking. Only some odd gameplay.
I think we need for the future some software that can actually detect hacks.
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lol ppl still defend spades. everyone who uses his brain and has a bit of gameknowledge clearly sees he hacks.
the best evidence for that is the huge difference between his tournament plays (7 games; fog of war 0 times) and his laddergames (50 games; fog of war about 1000 times).
This combined with the weirdest moves possible in this replays that happen about 5000% too often compared to a normal player doesnt allow for defending spades.
Also, the statements of giX and Mihai saying he streamcheated IN THE TEAMHOUSE and his history of hacking in Broodwar makes a defense of spades simply invalid imo.
If he has eggs he commits to have hacked like a man.
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No. The OPs identity DOES NOT MATTER at all. Why would it? It would give him more credibility? Are you all nuts? Look at the damn evidence and decide for yourself! It doesn't matter who brings it up!
You can already see that even the pro-players who actually looked at this have divided opinions. Why would it matter if the guy is Lucifron himself, a guy affiliated with Lucifron, a completely random guy, maybe Spades' girlfriend who is angry that he's cheating on her? How the fuck does that change the credibility of the ACTUAL ALLEGATIONS?
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On June 05 2012 21:18 Felnarion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:15 darthfoley wrote:On June 05 2012 21:10 ggrrg wrote:
This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago... He saw 2 units with a scan (basically) on TDA at 32:20. Why would he wait 30 seconds before sending units over there? He doesn't react UNTIL the drop is just about to commence in his main. Call that lucky timing, but lucifron could've easily dropped right after 32:20, yet somehow 30 seconds later spades still "knows it's coming" I don't think that's proof. Yes, the scan is random, and lucky. But Lucifron had dropped that spot two or three times prior. While I probably wouldn't do it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, when an army is outside your third, to scan it quickly to see if he's trying to distract you.
I understand your point, i just find it really weird to feel the "game sense" 30 seconds after you spot a possible drop. If he truly believe a drop was imminent at 32:20, why didn't he unseige a few tanks/hellions around that time? Eh
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On June 05 2012 21:25 Jinsho wrote:
No. The OPs identity DOES NOT MATTER at all. Why would it? It would give him more credibility? Are you all nuts? Look at the damn evidence and decide for yourself! It doesn't matter who brings it up!
You can already see that even the pro-players who actually looked at this have divided opinions. Why would it matter if the guy is Lucifron himself, a guy affiliated with Lucifron, a completely random guy, maybe Spades' girlfriend who is angry that he's cheating on her? How the fuck does that change the credibility of the ACTUAL ALLEGATIONS?
There is no evidence, only claims that says "that's weird, I wouldn't do that, he must be hacking" -- that's your best guess, right there.
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On June 05 2012 21:24 Uracil wrote:
Seems there is no actuall proof of Spades hacking. Only some odd gameplay.
I think we need for the future some software that can actually detect hacks.
Yes! But who is going to make it? Surely not just a random guy. I think maybe the developer of the game should make something. Perhaps they could then integrate it into the game as well, wouldn't that be awesome?
But what would they call it? I'm thinking something like... Guardian? Defender?
Surely that will end all maphacking forever!!
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On June 05 2012 21:28 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:24 Uracil wrote:
Seems there is no actuall proof of Spades hacking. Only some odd gameplay.
I think we need for the future some software that can actually detect hacks. Yes! But who is going to make it? Surely not just a random guy. I think maybe the developer of the game should make something. Perhaps they could then integrate it into the game as well, wouldn't that be awesome? But what would they call it? I'm thinking something like... Guardian? Defender? Surely that will end all maphacking forever!!
I see what you did there.
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On June 05 2012 21:25 Jinsho wrote:
No. The OPs identity DOES NOT MATTER at all. Why would it? It would give him more credibility? Are you all nuts? Look at the damn evidence and decide for yourself! It doesn't matter who brings it up!
It doesn't matter in the sense that it doesn't make the accusations any more or less true.
It matters in the sense that he is attacking someone else's character and reputation, but hides his own identity. If you are going to attack someone else in this manner, at least have the guts to attach your name to it. These are very serious accusations.
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On June 05 2012 21:25 Jinsho wrote:
No. The OPs identity DOES NOT MATTER at all. Why would it? It would give him more credibility? Are you all nuts? Look at the damn evidence and decide for yourself! It doesn't matter who brings it up!
You can already see that even the pro-players who actually looked at this have divided opinions. Why would it matter if the guy is Lucifron himself, a guy affiliated with Lucifron, a completely random guy, maybe Spades' girlfriend who is angry that he's cheating on her? How the fuck does that change the credibility of the ACTUAL ALLEGATIONS?
It's not the allegations by themselves that are important, but how important it becomes if Spades is found to be innocent because of them at the end of whatever investigation that happen. Regardless, Spades' career is ended with this (unlike other witch hunts, he doesn't nearly have a similar popularity). If that is the case, the person who is making such an accusation should be held accountable as well, since if nothing is done, every professional player should be worried about all of their replays, since if a single set has something suspicious, it would be enough for possibly some jealous competitor to create a fake account top then say so-and-so is maphacking.
While you're right that whether Spades is maphacking or not is irrelevant to the identity of the OP, it is relevant in the aftermath of what happens.
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On June 05 2012 21:27 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:25 Jinsho wrote:
No. The OPs identity DOES NOT MATTER at all. Why would it? It would give him more credibility? Are you all nuts? Look at the damn evidence and decide for yourself! It doesn't matter who brings it up!
You can already see that even the pro-players who actually looked at this have divided opinions. Why would it matter if the guy is Lucifron himself, a guy affiliated with Lucifron, a completely random guy, maybe Spades' girlfriend who is angry that he's cheating on her? How the fuck does that change the credibility of the ACTUAL ALLEGATIONS? There is no evidence, only claims that says "that's weird, I wouldn't do that, he must be hacking" -- that's your best guess, right there.
The replays are the evidence. Understanding what it means is the thing that is actually difficult so people don't want to do it. They are lazy and stupid and want catz or Illusion or whoever else to do it for them so they know who to point their pitchforks at, Spades or the OP (who DARES to be anonymous, ugh, how dare he avoid our wrath???? he must be suspicious????)
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On June 05 2012 21:25 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:18 Felnarion wrote:On June 05 2012 21:15 darthfoley wrote:On June 05 2012 21:10 ggrrg wrote:
This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago... He saw 2 units with a scan (basically) on TDA at 32:20. Why would he wait 30 seconds before sending units over there? He doesn't react UNTIL the drop is just about to commence in his main. Call that lucky timing, but lucifron could've easily dropped right after 32:20, yet somehow 30 seconds later spades still "knows it's coming" I don't think that's proof. Yes, the scan is random, and lucky. But Lucifron had dropped that spot two or three times prior. While I probably wouldn't do it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me, when an army is outside your third, to scan it quickly to see if he's trying to distract you. I understand your point, i just find it really weird to feel the "game sense" 30 seconds after you spot a possible drop. If he truly believe a drop was imminent at 32:20, why didn't he unseige a few tanks/hellions around that time? Eh
The thing is: Bad decisions don't make him guilty.
Don't get me wrong, given his scan and map movement behavior, I'm 100% certain he hacks, that's not the question.
But you can't convict him based on bad game decisions. Does he make weird movements sometimes, yes, but I guarantee if you watch any replays of similar players, you'd see similar things.
The definitive proof, which Catz showed off last night, was how his camera behaves in a legit game vs a map hack game. In the legit games, he doesn't have those weird screen lock moments where he's supposedly doing everything on the minimap. He looks into the fog to see things, he scouts better, he looks at what he scouts, he moves the camera to the scan point then scans, instead of scanning at the top left of the screen for no reason.
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On June 05 2012 21:28 Jinsho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 21:24 Uracil wrote:
Seems there is no actuall proof of Spades hacking. Only some odd gameplay.
I think we need for the future some software that can actually detect hacks. Yes! But who is going to make it? Surely not just a random guy. I think maybe the developer of the game should make something. Perhaps they could then integrate it into the game as well, wouldn't that be awesome? But what would they call it? I'm thinking something like... Guardian? Defender? Surely that will end all maphacking forever!!
We need a warden against all evil.
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Of course the ID of the OP matters.
It's ridiculous to say otherwise. I'm surprised TL hasn't released the name yet. I can only hope they are trying to build an actual newsworthy post relating hacking to esports.
If I had played MKP in a BO7 and went through them, game by game, second by second I'm sure I could find various instances where he used his 'game-sense', took a risk and caught my plans out.
If I was to cry hack over that, the TL forums would laugh at me.
If I was DRG in the same situation and cried foul - it would be looked at under a much more powerful microscope.
It may even be fanboys against fanboys. People will have their opinions one way or the other. Some won't be swayed, some can see the evidence, some will wait for further proof.
Why this thread is not closed is beyond me.
An account with 1 post, claiming a semi-pro/pro player is a hacker is a big deal in the esports scene. Sure, it's only live tournaments, can't be that bad right? They will never win a GSL if they rely on map hacks. What about when they have online qualifiers for tourneys? and a hacker knocks out a legitimately better player and then gets crushed in the lan events? Not only is he pretending he has a chance, maybe to scrape some meager winnings from competing but he is also crippling a stronger player from making a living off the sport.
Nothing is going to be solved in this thread. It's just paint flinging. Close the thread, talk to the esports community, talk to the pro gamers and coaches and commentators and people behind the scenes. Right or wrong, there is no point throwing Spades under the bus just to say "we did good for esports".
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On June 05 2012 21:10 ggrrg wrote:
This whole thread is disgusting... First we have an anonymus OP that is biased as hell while being quite inaccurate about tons of accusations. Then there was the ridiculous witchhunt with catz and co, which had far more in common with the inquisition than it had with a fair investigation and discussion. In addition, there are tons of posters that jump the "he hacked" bandwagon while quite certainly having seen any of the replays - best case scenario they've seen catz' witchhunt.
For what it matters, I took the time to watch the Antiga and the Taldarim games. In game 1 there is basically nothing fishy at all and there is a simple explanation for all the vague accusations of the OP. I watched the Taldarim game since there was supposedly the most "evidence". Well, I was utterly disappointed. There was barely anything strange. Especially, the 32:50 drop, which was allegedly proof of hacking, is clearly seen by spades with his scan around 32:30. The only suspicious thing in that game was the hellion escape around 16:30, but this is barely enough evidence of hacking.
I don't care much about spades anyway and I've never seen him play. I have no idea if he hacks, but the evidence presented here is plain shitty and this thread is just terrible and probably should have been closed a long time ago...
How about the fact the Spades never once looked into the fog of war in a bo7...
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EPT
