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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:
You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What?
I'd never heard of Spades before today but I have insomnia and a dislike of fallacies such as argument from authority and ad hominems such as 'You obviously do not play this game at a high level.'
Koreans can be 'greedy' and 'confident' and 'feel safe' but if Spades doesn't look to see whether that second building is a rax or a factory it's time to get the lynching rope!
Here's a fun game. Look at all the scouting down in 10 minutes of play and see if you can guess is this a Spades maphack game or more pro Koreans?
![[image loading]](http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/4091/scwho.jpg)
The lesson to hackers everywhere, don't even bother to send your Scv since doing so will be evidence that you are hacking. I'm reminded of Artosis saying Spades defending himself instead of blowing off the charges was evidence he was guilty. Greg: 'Actually Dan, that's what he did.' Oh well is that evidence he is innocent? Nope. Just nevermind. Forget anything was said.
Edit: Trying to get the image to load, if it doesn't work screw it
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On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge.
Hmm this interesting, you appear to be correct about 6:24. I can see the selections at 6:25/6:26 but not at 6:24. At the same time, the selections Spades made at 11:07 were after using control group 3, which are his barracks, with no control 5 anywhere adjacent. But you are right, it seems possibly SC2Gears is buggy in this regard.
Please no not consider my previous post as definitive.
I stated in it that I was asking for alternative explanations, but in case the disclaimer was not clear enough, it is not solid 100% proof and may have alternate explanations like what is being brought up here.
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On June 05 2012 17:33 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:31 MLG_Wiggin wrote:I didn't want to post anything at all in this thread but... On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. Regardless of whether or not Spades is hacking, real life death threats are completely unacceptable. Have class, people. trolls gonna troll. there are always going to be idiots that do things like this. if i were spades i would just ignore these threats because they are baseless. most of these people threatening him probably dont even live in the united states let alone close to MLG.
Its really hard to discuss anything legitimately regarding any serious matter. Im voicing martinj concern that it should happen behind the curtains, regardless if Spades is at fault or not. The amount of harm coming from community is actually comparable to hypothetical people at fault, its disgusting. I know its pretty controversial to say, but this community is not really not fit for this.
I look on you reddit/TL/Twitter joes, think about others, this is not simple playing jokes its playing someones career/life.
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It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this.
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On June 05 2012 17:42 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:39 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:32 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 05 2012 17:31 ChrysaliS_ wrote:On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. I love how you keep posting in this thread but don't even attempt to try to defend yourself. he did attempt it though Before any of the better arguments were made. Seriously, just talk about the fog of war issue. Such a drastic difference between never being in it in those 7 games and the 50 recent ladder games he posted. Makes no sense. yet people said he hacked to get to #1 GM when he got out of the reign house, but now he's not hacking in his ladder games? doesn't make a whole lot of sense
Sure it does. He's not hacking now because he stopped when suspicion arose and suddenly his playstyle is drastically different as well? Anyone who has tried to change one of their habits knows it's incredibly hard. Even something simple like using 5 for my CC instead of 4, it was causing so many mistakes I decided to just leave it as it was. So going from never looking into the fog of war into constantly? So ridiculously suspicious. Obviously he is still a competent player without the hack, it can only do so much for you.
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On June 05 2012 17:22 Martijn wrote:
Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
I don't want to give a 1 word reply to such a post ("agreed").. but I think the general consensus of the community needs to reach what you have just said... Hold your opinions until the team does its investigation... its getting to the point that this one thread on TL may now be affecting MULTIPLE careers.. lets all calm down.
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On June 05 2012 17:45 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Hmm this interesting, you appear to be correct about 6:24. I can see the selections at 6:25/6:26 but not at 6:24. At the same time, the selections Spades made at 11:07 were after using control group 3, which are his barracks, with no control 5 anywhere adjacent. But you are right, it seems possibly SC2Gears is buggy in this regard. Please no not consider my previous post as definitive.I stated in it that I was asking for alternative explanations, but in case the disclaimer was not clear enough, it is not solid 100% proof and may have alternate explanations like what is being brought up here.
I'd say it's more likely that replay playback skips some steps considered irrelevant. If SC2Gears added SCVs to selections because it feels like it, it'd do it all the times, not randomly when it wants to.
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On June 05 2012 17:45 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge. Hmm this interesting, you appear to be correct about 6:24. I can see the selections at 6:25/6:26 but not at 6:24. At the same time, the selections Spades made at 11:07 were after using control group 3, which are his barracks, with no control 5 anywhere adjacent. But you are right, it seems possibly SC2Gears is buggy in this regard. Please no not consider my previous post as definitive.I stated in it that I was asking for alternative explanations, but in case the disclaimer was not clear enough, it is not solid 100% proof and may have alternate explanations like what is being brought up here.
Another important piece of information from Dakota_Fanning
This hotkey spam and SCV selection isn't hack, or at least not proof of it.
You probably don't see the selection circles on SCVs because at the same frame he presses a hotkey select (you can verify this if you uncheck Seconds in the Replay analyzer), and probably SC2 shows selection with circles with the last select action at any given frame...
So, it looks like the gun was jumped here. If anything it makes the accusations of camera lock hack less likely.
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On June 05 2012 17:46 Caihead wrote:
It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to rather he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this.
lol, try more like 75% of the thread. :/
Every time someone comes up with something strange about any of the games, it's automatically definitive evidence to most of the people posting here.
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On June 05 2012 17:47 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 05 2012 17:39 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:32 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 05 2012 17:31 ChrysaliS_ wrote:On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. I love how you keep posting in this thread but don't even attempt to try to defend yourself. he did attempt it though Before any of the better arguments were made. Seriously, just talk about the fog of war issue. Such a drastic difference between never being in it in those 7 games and the 50 recent ladder games he posted. Makes no sense. yet people said he hacked to get to #1 GM when he got out of the reign house, but now he's not hacking in his ladder games? doesn't make a whole lot of sense Sure it does. He's not hacking now because he stopped when suspicion arose and suddenly his playstyle is drastically different as well? Anyone who has tried to change one of their habits knows it's incredibly hard. Even something simple like using 5 for my CC instead of 4, it was causing so many mistakes I decided to just leave it as it was. So going from never looking into the fog of war into constantly? So ridiculously suspicious. Obviously he is still a competent player without the hack, it can only do so much for you.
stopped when suspicion arose? you're saying he played 100 ladder games within 24 hours?
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I think people need to actually use a map hack before they should accuse anyone of map hacking, that way they actually know what they are talking about and what to look for when trying to ruin someones carrer.
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after reading a few of the posts i just wanted to make it clear that im still not sure whether or not he hacks, i would advise u guys to formulate ur own opinions aswell instead of bandwagoning just so u can have fun. watch his series vs luci and try to watch as many replays of him as u can so u can come to your own conclusion. educate urselves yo, this is a serious matter
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On June 05 2012 17:45 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:
You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? I'd never heard of Spades before today but I have insomnia and a dislike of fallacies such as argument from authority and ad hominems such as 'You obviously do not play this game at a high level.' Koreans can be 'greedy' and 'confident' and 'feel safe' but if Spades doesn't look to see whether that second building is a rax or a factory it's time to get the lynching rope! Here's a fun game. Look at all the scouting down in 10 minutes of play and see if you can guess is this a Spades maphack game or more pro Koreans? The lesson to hackers everywhere, don't even bother to send your Scv since doing so will be evidence that you are hacking. I'm reminded of Artosis saying Spades defending himself instead of blowing off the charges was evidence he was guilty. Greg: 'Actually Dan, that's what he did.' Oh well is that evidence he is innocent? Nope. Just nevermind. Forget anything was said.
Your comparison is so poor it's understandable multiple people called it out right away. Taking risks and doing something retarded like wasting mining time sending out a worker and not referring back to it at a GM level, totally the same thing. Don't even try comparing Spades to a top-tier Korean. Assuming you've been following this thread then, you do realize he hacked in BW and this isn't completely random? A former hacker who plays this ridiculously suspicious is not something to be dismissed so easily.
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God that really fucking pissed me off. I really shouldn't post when I'm this infuriated, but consider this a lapse in judgement on my part.
If we find out who is threatening Spades, who is still one of our players, don't doubt that our team will most certainly go SlayerS'Jessica on you. Regardless of anything in this thread, show some respect for a fellow human being. Freaking middleschool..
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As ironic as it sounds, I think the fact Spades is really bad may save him this time around. I'm watching CatZ&cie's VOD right now, it's really weird because every time they analyze something fishy (like he moves to defend a drop without spotting it beforehand), Spades is instantly out-positioned 2 seconds later by another army, gets horribly supply blocked and calldowns supply like crazy, to still end up down in supply most of the time. For every "good" play he makes that could be backed up by maphacking tools, there are 2 bad plays that scream Spades is just awful.
Plus, it seems kinda douchy to accuse him of maphacking because he was not raped HARD ENOUGH by LucifroN.
At this point we could just leave him alone, it's not like he will go anywhere, even with all the maphacks in the world...
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On June 05 2012 17:42 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:36 fraktoasters wrote:On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci. So proof that shows Spades is a hacker actually becomes proof that he isn't a hacker? Things don't really work that way. He never looks into the fog and somehow you twist that 180 degrees around? Statements like your's really bug me in this thread. He does look into the fog. " He never looks into the fog [...]" just proves to me that you haven't even bothered watching the replays and that you are here just to throw stones.
Obviously we're just talking about different games/parts of the game lol
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On June 05 2012 17:55 Martijn wrote:
God that really fucking pissed me off. I really shouldn't post when I'm this infuriated, but consider this a lapse in judgement on my part.
If we find out who is threatening Spades, who is still one of our players, don't doubt that our team will most certainly go SlayerS'Jessica on you. Regardless of anything in this thread, show some respect for a fellow human being. Freaking middleschool..
There there Martijn, I'm sorry on behalf of silent observers who didn't speak out soon enough.
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On June 05 2012 17:54 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:47 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:42 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 05 2012 17:39 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:32 ROOTFayth wrote:On June 05 2012 17:31 ChrysaliS_ wrote:On June 05 2012 17:24 Spades wrote:
If you think I'm a hacker, that's your opinion. Be upset about it. If you think I'm not thats fine too. But i don't need to be getting email death threats of people saying they are going to kill me if i come to mlg. I'm sorry this all happened, I'm going to sleep, in time truth will prevail. I love how you keep posting in this thread but don't even attempt to try to defend yourself. he did attempt it though Before any of the better arguments were made. Seriously, just talk about the fog of war issue. Such a drastic difference between never being in it in those 7 games and the 50 recent ladder games he posted. Makes no sense. yet people said he hacked to get to #1 GM when he got out of the reign house, but now he's not hacking in his ladder games? doesn't make a whole lot of sense Sure it does. He's not hacking now because he stopped when suspicion arose and suddenly his playstyle is drastically different as well? Anyone who has tried to change one of their habits knows it's incredibly hard. Even something simple like using 5 for my CC instead of 4, it was causing so many mistakes I decided to just leave it as it was. So going from never looking into the fog of war into constantly? So ridiculously suspicious. Obviously he is still a competent player without the hack, it can only do so much for you. stopped when suspicion arose? you're saying he played 100 ladder games within 24 hours?
This thread popping up is not necessarily when he became worried people might be catching on. Either way it doesn't answer the playstyle change.
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On June 05 2012 17:36 VonDarkmore wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:25 Moonling wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. What further investigation can be done to solidify this? Im very new to hearing of this program but it seems convincing. This post should be in OP so people know this research was done. ANTIGA SHIPYARD SC2 gears is not perfect with these selections as said at however AT 6:24 LucifroN also selects scv x 20 yet he has his CC selected in game not his scv's at any time within that 4 seconds also to note when he selects his command center it is rallied to his minerals and there is 19 scv's mining it including the mule however the scv he creates in the CC at this time is the 20th scv, This leads me to believe sc2 gears counts how many scv are on the field the CC is rallied to and how many is created and adds them to a selection command even though 20 scv's were not selected. again check this with the timings EtherealDream had with those selections of scv's not being selected. 11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all 11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 if you check Spades clicks his command center and it is rallied to his minerals with 14 scv's mining the scv built becomes the 15th even though he has only his command center selected same as LucifroN again SC2 Gears is taking the action of selecting the command center to input the number of scv's on the mineral field and any built as a selection command when it is not. this is importaint! SC2 Gears can most absolutely not be used as it is not reliable program I am still researching this but i wanted this posted because half a dozen people jumped on it as evidence without knowledge.
Very nicely found, and it is a good example of how something can seem condemning and proof when in fact there are other factors at play. Which is why all this bandwagonning is just rediculous in my eyes, maybe he hacked or maybe he didn't but jumping to conclusions so quickly only serves to hurt your position (if you have to go back on something you earlier relied on as evidence) as well as hurts the player with a lot of negative feeling generated from things that arent proven yet.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/scwho.jpg/)
