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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 17:02 everyone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Nice find. Case closed!
Don't know it it's case closed already but one of the few posts with actual data that could be turned into facts if more qualified people chime in. Definitly needs to be looked at more.
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Whenever someone loses a game, bad judgement tends to rage out. This is another case of this. Lucifron lost games, and to who? One of the most underrated Terrans in North America. To this guy(original poster) that had no consideration but to understand how Lucifron can possibly lose games to such a "nobody", he became extremely suspicious. Now I watched all the games for almost 2 hours because to me this is extremely serious. Some people do not realize how hard it is to make it in the North American scene and for this accusation to be possible with opinions and nit-picky suspicions cannot be tolerated. When you seriously convince yourself that someone is cheating, the easiest thing is to FUEL YOUR OWN SUSPICIONS. This does not mean you have evidence. Most of what I see is people using Spades' success in the ladder as proof that he must be cheating or vendettas against build-order losses/lack of scouting. How sick is that... The biggest problem right now is the mentality that North Americans are way to inferior to actually beat good players. This thread desperately needs to be destroyed and the person who posted this should be IP banned.
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On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.
Please note that the reasoning in the post on sc2sea was mistaken, the user was comparing Blizzard time to real-time. The sc2gears replay analysis is consistent with what happens in game and no extra actions were found in that replay when analysed by other people.
I have not looked at any of Spade's replays and can not comment on the rest of the findings in this post.
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On June 05 2012 17:01 Alacar wrote:
Bomber and MKP are being greedy while Spades just is being a moron... or he is hacking.
Lawyers call options such as this ”Reasonable Doubt”.
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Meanwhile somewhere in Korea Actual Starcraft pro matches were played and people preferred to watch a kangaroo trial over an accusation of hacking.
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On June 05 2012 17:12 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Also noticed the lack of selection markers. I think this is due to fast hands, I pulled a random replay (Lastshadow vs Lizzy on Antiga here) and watched Lizzy. SC2Gears states that at 19 seconds into the game Lizzy selects his 7 probes thrice while you can see the shadow only once.
I can see it every time on slowest in the replay you gave me.
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On June 05 2012 17:14 xpaperclip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface. Please note that the reasoning in the post on sc2sea was mistaken, the user was comparing Blizzard time to real-time. The sc2gears replay analysis is consistent with what happens in game and no extra actions were found in that replay when analysed by other people. I have not looked at any of Spade's replays and can not comment on the rest of the findings in this post.
Well, I can say that I didn't make the real time to game time mistake. However I am curious if there's a way that selection can just be completely invisible to me in game.
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A few things are really really strange:
A) He plays legit when other people are live around him (MLG, training houses) and is good enough to be pro. How on earth could he lose when hacking? Lucifron might be better, but I seriously doubt that he is THAT much better to negate a hack.
B) Why on earth would I ever look in the fog of war when I maphack? Minimap is all that is needed for drops and army movement, the production tab hack is enough to get the build order advantage. Why on earth would you look over your opponents army?
C) Camera lock.... when I play I often don't move the camera, because my army is at home base and my eyes focus exclusively on the minimap, the resource counter and the status display while I rotate through production.
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On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong.
Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What?
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On June 05 2012 17:13 Attero wrote:
Whenever someone loses a game, bad judgement tends to rage out. This is another case of this. Lucifron lost games, and to who? One of the most underrated Terrans in North America. To this guy(original poster) that had no consideration but to understand how Lucifron can possibly lose games to such a "nobody", he became extremely suspicious. Now I watched all the games for almost 2 hours because to me this is extremely serious. Some people do not realize how hard it is to make it in the North American scene and for this accusation to be possible with opinions and nit-picky suspicions cannot be tolerated. When you seriously convince yourself that someone is cheating, the easiest thing is to FUEL YOUR OWN SUSPICIONS. This does not mean you have evidence. Most of what I see is people using Spades' success in the ladder as proof that he must be cheating or vendettas against build-order losses/lack of scouting. How sick is that... The biggest problem right now is the mentality that North Americans are way to inferior to actually beat good players. This thread desperately needs to be destroyed and the person who posted this should be IP banned.
Yeah, let's protect the hackers!
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On June 05 2012 17:13 Attero wrote:
Whenever someone loses a game, bad judgement tends to rage out. This is another case of this. Lucifron lost games, and to who? One of the most underrated Terrans in North America. To this guy(original poster) that had no consideration but to understand how Lucifron can possibly lose games to such a "nobody", he became extremely suspicious. Now I watched all the games for almost 2 hours because to me this is extremely serious. Some people do not realize how hard it is to make it in the North American scene and for this accusation to be possible with opinions and nit-picky suspicions cannot be tolerated. When you seriously convince yourself that someone is cheating, the easiest thing is to FUEL YOUR OWN SUSPICIONS. This does not mean you have evidence. Most of what I see is people using Spades' success in the ladder as proof that he must be cheating or vendettas against build-order losses/lack of scouting. How sick is that... The biggest problem right now is the mentality that North Americans are way to inferior to actually beat good players. This thread desperately needs to be destroyed and the person who posted this should be IP banned.
Did you even watch the Catz or Illusion stream analysis before posting that? Because they found things that you most likely didn't and that haven't been explained yet.
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On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this.
Damn... it's over.
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On June 05 2012 17:12 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Also noticed the lack of selection markers. I think this is due to fast hands, I pulled a random replay (Lastshadow vs Lizzy on Antiga here) and watched Lizzy. SC2Gears states that at 19 seconds into the game Lizzy selects his 7 probes thrice while you can see the shadow only once.
This is probably the only 'proof' so to say, that spades may be hacking, but if you are indeed right, that if you are fast enough, selection circles can be lost(by someone checking replays of high APM players in beginning stages of games), that invalidates it.
All I've seen other than your quoted post is just a disgrace to call a proof and a shame someone(and infact so many people) takes it as evidence.
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On June 05 2012 17:12 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:02 everyone wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557Edit - quick explanation of method. The camera lock sometimes doesn't just put no action. Instead it puts some fake actions in. Why it would do so I do not know. So, I looked for fake actions, which turned into a discovery of an action I believe to be physically impossible from a human using the interface.I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Nice find. Case closed! Don't know it it's case closed already but one of the few posts with actual data that could be turned into facts if more qualified people chime in. Definitly needs to be looked at more.
Finally. Some tangible evidence, not just inconclusive 'expert' opinions or allegations.
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On June 05 2012 17:12 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Also noticed the lack of selection markers. I think this is due to fast hands, I pulled a random replay (Lastshadow vs Lizzy on Antiga here) and watched Lizzy. SC2Gears states that at 19 seconds into the game Lizzy selects his 7 probes thrice while you can see the shadow only once.
Ye i think selection circles while viewing replays "lag" a little, it won't catch scv box spaming (like it will show once but not every rapid selection/deselection separately). But i cant cofirm it now.
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On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What?
Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci.
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On June 05 2012 12:27 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:27 CaptainCharisma wrote:
So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace. You're missing the fucking point. He allegedly cheated in a SHOWMATCH. FOR MONEY. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Ladder games fine, go cheat your ass off. ladder pts don't mean shit (maybe they do blizz is weird) but when you are playing for money using a hack... ............
Actually you missed the point.
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On June 05 2012 17:19 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:12 schaf wrote:On June 05 2012 16:42 EtherealDeath wrote:Here is a post on SC2SEA on a method that was used to catch a person using camera lock: http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557I decided to try this analysis on Spade's replays. Now I could not find any combinations of the Hotkey 1,2,3 signature, so at first I thought it meant it cleared him. But then, I found something weird. Recall in the OP that Spades has a 8 second window of camera stoppage in in the Antiga game at 11:02. Here are the actions from 11:02 to 11:10. Yes I do have the default real time setting in SC2gears changed to game time. Initially I was puzzled by what it was telling me until I realized I needed to change this setting. + Show Spoiler +11:02 Spades Select Starport (103d0), Deselect all
11:02 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:03 Spades Train Siege Tank
11:03 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 4
11:04 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:05 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:06 Spades Train SCV
11:06 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102dc,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x11 (1029c,102a0,102a4,102ac,102d4,102f4,1035c,10430,1044c,104c4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Select SCV x4 (1029c,102a4,102d4,10574), Deselect all
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:07 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:08 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:09 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 3
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x14 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE x2 (104e4,10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5
11:10 Spades Select SCV x15 (102b0,10394,103c4,1040c,1041c,1043c,7045c,50464,10488,1048c,c049c,404a0,104c0,204d0,10544), MULE (10578), Deselect all
11:10 Spades Hotkey Select 5 Now I can see the hotkey switching in action, even when it is really fast. Of note is the scv selection deselection. This is also present at the beginning of the game but this is normal. This is simply dragging a box, selecting all the visible scvs, and then deselecting them by clicking somewhere on the ground. So, for a moment you will see a red circle around the selected scvs in the replay, before they are deselected. In fact you can see this happen all throughout early game, and this is normal. I cannot see the red circle at all in the interval from 11:02 to 11:10, corresponding to this selection/deselection. I have stared at a twenty second chunk at each base intently over and over. The huge time window is so that I don't have to worry about looking at the timer. I am only trying to see that red circle pop up around an scv to show that it was selected. I cannot see this even at the slowest replay speed. He is either selecting and then deselecting them faster than I can imagine or something else is at play. So at the moment I suspect that these hotkey selections and unit selection/deselection may be what a camera locking program is inserting as false actions. Either that, or something is wrong with SC2's replay storage, or somehow Spades can select/deselect faster than I can imagine. Why do the hotkey selections not disappear instantly you might ask? Well, the way the engine would interpret it is to keep the hotkey selection until another hotkey is pressed, or something else is done, so it cannot possible disappear in a flash. The instant unit select/deselection is thus the red flag to me. If someone can explain this instantaneous selection/deselection please do. All other evidence aside, I have a hard time believing that a camera lock is not in play given this. Also noticed the lack of selection markers. I think this is due to fast hands, I pulled a random replay (Lastshadow vs Lizzy on Antiga here) and watched Lizzy. SC2Gears states that at 19 seconds into the game Lizzy selects his 7 probes thrice while you can see the shadow only once. Ye i think selection circles while viewing replays "lag" a little, it won't catch scv box spaming (like it will show once but not every rapid selection/deselection separately). But i cant cofirm it now.
I APM spam quite a bit at the start of my matches and in the replays you can clearly see my quick selections between workers and main building.
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Eyey, if it's all the same. I understand it's relevant, but it's easier on me if what I say on Twitter stays there. Saves me from waking up to people I've never heard of posting "boohoo crybaby" and the like. It's not that I feel like what I say is any less public there, but that's followers I don't need if you get what I'm saying. So consider that a personal request, thanks.
Now to discuss the mess at hand. Please note my main role with the westernwolves is as a commentator and the work I do managing and dealing with communities is purely secondary. In the end I only give the guy that signs the budget a recommendation. Sure so far they've always taken them, but in no way does me posting on Twitter; "I don't see how we can keep Spades on the team" mean "Spades isn't going to stay on the team". People much wiser than me sign off on the budget.
That said, I certainly meant what I posted there. Cheater or not, the only way Spades can come out of this with a reputation worth anything is if he proves conclusively he didn't cheat. Now the only thing harder than proving someone cheated is perhaps that someone didn't cheat. There is no way you can explain every action in a game afterwards and no way to prove you Didn't cheat. The best Spades could've hoped for was that people looked at this thread and the circumstancesand reached the conclusion there's not enough there to state he's cheating.
Now there's a few things that really troubled me throughout this. First off the blatantly bogus OP . IP match or not, I'm more convinced this is some cowards alt than anything. If you're going to make huge claims like this, put your own reputation at stake, you're certainly setting out to destroy someone else's. Taking in to account most the points made weren't proof of anything or just false, this went way further than it should have.
Though I shouldn't have to post this, here's how you Should handle a situation like this; if you find someone suspicious, contact 1 the admins 2 the team. They are going to be more suited than you to analyze this situation and are the ones that should if necessary act on this. Now in this case, they're one and the same, the WesternWolves. WW is a team with a wide array of players among several games, they're reputation is what sponsors bank on. Just like any team of this sort, they'll do whatever is needed to ensure their reputation is a legitimate one (obviously does not include creating bogus alts and accusing people). We would welcome that kind of feedback, investigate it to the fullest and probably thank you for it afterwards regardless of what is found!
A team will then generally contact uninvolved players and ask them to review the games. They will review these games in private, not on a stream to generate more sensation and leech the situation for every viewer they can get. If you want to know how far we got with this i we managed to contact 2 mouz players, but before anything could be reviewed, Spades was already getting hung out to dry. It is in no way TL or Reddits job to police players, we are quite capable of that as teams thank you very much.
What bothered me personally is what Mirhi posted and that I really can't get over. I have know Mirhi longer than almost anyone here and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I've known Frank from as far back as when he worked under me in CAL back when I was only the game manager for wc3. Now it is no secret that Spades and Reign had a bad break. They had a falling out and there's no love between the 2. So NOW hearing "oh yeah btw, he streamcheated in Reign" really leaves a very nasty aftertaste. Not only because it seems like he's trying to bury Spades with their being some grudge in the background but also because of the obvious: why the fuck did Mirhi/Reign hide this all this time in the first place. As we might get a first hand demonstration of, if someone in WW is found cheating, the team will act on it and it won't be a slap on the wrist. To make matters worse he throws the results of MLG in question and won't even point out who was actually being coached during a game, so we have to suspect.. every Korean there?
Personally I see suspect behavior in the replays. Can I conclusively state Spades was cheating? No, not at this point. Not until we have pros review the games as they should've been in the first place. Regardless, I personally don't see a way Spades could recover from this regardless purely because of the damage to his reputation. People patting themselves on the back after all this can jump off a cliff for all I care, Spades was never given a fair chance which I think we should regret. At this point the truth won't matter much. Regardless WW will do it's part and do it properly. We'll investigate the matter fully and go from there.
The above user does not wish to receive hatemail in pm or on twitter, thanks for your consideration.
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On June 05 2012 17:20 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 17:16 IcedBacon wrote:On June 05 2012 17:11 dvorakftw wrote:On June 05 2012 16:52 IcedBacon wrote:
Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it. Except that he did. One refinery, not zero or two, and two buildings, not zero, or one, or three, and no bunker. See, this is my problem with these arguments. To say he "retrieved NO information from it" is simply 100% factually wrong. Top level players just don't play like that. When it's the early game and there isn't much to do, sure lets just look at only the minimap for information when I could simply look down at the map that's already been revealed and gather more information? You come into this thread with apparently poor SC2 game sense and no TL posts and try so hard to defend Spades. What? Can you tell me a reason, in the early game, why he would prefer to hack rather than look at information availeble to him? Because I can see no reason for him to do that, except the simple reason that it was a mistake. It's not like he didn't make a ton of mistakes in those games, lucky for him, so did Luci.
So if he made a mistake by not referring back to his worker would he not have panicked and scrolled down to see what he missed and therefore not really be at a loss at all? Nope he's just NEVER going to look down there and simply rely on the minimap. He was rank 1 GM, people who make it there don't play that retarded.
He did look down, it's just the hack prevented us from seeing in the replay that he did look into the fog of war.
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EPT
