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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Italy12248 Posts
On June 05 2012 16:45 KawaiiRice wrote:
there was a playhem a while ago where Spades played Golden, I don't remember and don't have replay, maybe it was a semis or finals match
on daybreak spades had no scouting whatsoever and didn't even know if hive was done and started 3 extra starports making like 5 vikings at a time without even knowing about hive or a spire. thought that was pretty funny.
Well since playhem appearently doesn't have delay on their stream (which honestly boggles my mind), that might just be stream cheating, which while still bad, is nowhere near as bad as hacking.
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On June 05 2012 15:55 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote:
Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. Why would you hack in a practice ladder games ? If someone uses hacks it doesnt means that he will hack 100% of his games. He just picked to hack in a showmatch where there is a chance to get recognition/money.
having games that you know or suspect to be clear and being able to contrast the playstyle displayed in these games with that of suspicious games would be very valuable.
The other thing one really should do when analyzing suspicious replays is stripping them of all playernames (and probably of hotkeys) and mixing them with replays of random other progamers - you only have an argument to stand on if the suspicious players' replays get flagged (statistically) significantly more often than those of other players.
At this point we have no idea how suspicious a "normal" game looks once you approach it with the same set of expectations and biases as you do with the game of a potential maphacker.
The methodology people in this thread use does absolutely nothing to deal with confirmation bias which is absurd given the gravity of the accusations.
The right thing to do would be to get together a panel of progamers, a set of suspicious games mixed with random games by other players and then conduct a blind trial. By publicizing the suspicious replays first you destroy any chance for a fair procedure as the reviewers would already be familiar with them and recognize them in the sample they are tasked to assess.
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For everyone complaining about Spades' Scv 'mini-map scouting' saying no pro would ever do anything like that:
1. Please download the MLG Orlando championship bracket replay pack
2. Go into folder 9 [note: I had to load the replay from in Starcraft, I couldn't click to launch]
3. Watch MKP vs STBomber on Metropolis
4. Go to 5 minutes in and tell us how much either player has scouted the other
For those who just want the answer -- Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes.
Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes.
And before anyone starts detailing all the reasons that situation is different, I don't care. The fact remains Spades does more scouting in his game in 3:30 minutes than either MLG champ Bomber or MLG champ MKP do in 5 minutes, which in their case was NONE AT ALL.
This alone destroys the Scv scouting argument.
[And btw don't think I spent a lot of time looking for this example. It was the third one I tried. The first two were the other games in the series. Bomber never scouts MarineKing so I could have used literally the first one I tried but Metropolis is even better since neither scouts.]
Remember Spades vs Lucifron is a showmatch. That means it's more like GSL where you prep for your opponent rather than going up against some random guy on ladder. At 3:30 Spades has LucifroN's location, one refinery, and two buildings. The only options are 2 rax or rax/factory and 2 rax makes even less sense than scouting only using the mini-map.
To be clear, overall I think it is more likely than not he was cheating and the Scv scout does look suspicious even with everything I wrote above, but if I were on a jury I'd be #8 of 12 angry men at this point. [Or Cousin Vinny for you kids who haven't watched the old classics.]
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I hate the CatZ stream at the same time. They already for the most part believe that he is a hacker, so they just pull out a bunch of game moments and talk about it being suspicious. Like Spades has said, he already has the Mob mentality after him. To be honest, I don't care though, because SC2 drama just turns into nerds bitching about stupid shit over and over. If you're not hacking.. sorry Spades. If you are.. uhh whatever I guess.
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Thats a strong 1st post you've got thar.
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On June 05 2012 16:45 KawaiiRice wrote:
there was a playhem a while ago where Spades played Golden, I don't remember and don't have replay, maybe it was a semis or finals match
on daybreak spades had no scouting whatsoever and didn't even know if hive was done and started 3 extra starports making like 5 vikings at a time without even knowing about hive or a spire. thought that was pretty funny.
as a pro you might give some better insight, i've seen blind starport play many times, and sometimes it lost the Terran the game cuz it was all ultra. Im not saying it's not suspicious, and i think he's probably hacking, but at least the "big names" should maintain a level of professionalism when commenting on this heated issue.
I also wonder who's smurf is the OP, im curious if the admins IP checked him, no way he's a forum newbie
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On June 05 2012 16:35 Brutaxilos wrote:Reading this thread reminds me of this guy. ![[image loading]](http://www.toplessrobot.com/phoenix-wright.jpg) Honestly, I remember once some of my friends accused me of maphacking and I spent the whole afternoon trying to prove myself innocent. If I were Spades, I would be replying to every other post here. Still waiting for the conclusive evidence though. Maybe Spades will have some dramatic breakdown like Phoenix Wright villains too.
Honestly, regardless of if Spades does or doesn't maphack, I don't blame him for not tuning in. These pages fill so fucking fast, people skip to the last page and voice their opinion without even having any idea of the content. At the end of the day, his input likely wouldn't change a single person's opinion. Might as well say fuck it and keep playing.
On June 05 2012 16:50 Geo.Rion wrote:
as a pro you might give some better insight, i've seen blind starport play many times, and sometimes it lost the Terran the game cuz it was all ultra. Im not saying it's not suspicious, and i think he's probably hacking, but at least the "big names" should maintain a level of professionalism when commenting on this heated issue.
I also wonder who's smurf is the OP, im curious if the admins IP checked him, no way he's a forum newbie
I'm actually surprised someone would deduct someone maphacked off that simple of logic. He made 3 starports, without scouting hive tech. Lets neglect any possible deduction that Spades could have received from someone's unit composition, game length, expansions, etc.
I've blindly thrown down starports for anticipation of broodlords in TvZ, and when I played, I constantly played and beat half the GMs.
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On June 05 2012 16:49 dvorakftw wrote:For everyone complaining about Spades' Scv 'mini-map scouting' saying no pro would ever do anything like that: 1. Please download the MLG Orlando championship bracket replay pack2. Go into folder 9 [note: I had to load the replay from in Starcraft, I couldn't click to launch] 3. Watch MKP vs STBomber on Metropolis 4. Go to 5 minutes in and tell us how much either player has scouted the other For those who just want the answer -- Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes. Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes. And before anyone starts detailing all the reasons that situation is different, I don't care. The fact remains Spades does more scouting in his game in 3:30 minutes than either MLG champ Bomber or MLG champ MKP do in 5 minutes, which in their case was NONE AT ALL. This alone destroys the Scv scouting argument. [And btw don't think I spent a lot of time looking for this example. It was the third one I tried. The first two were the other games in the series. Bomber never scouts MarineKing so I could have used literally the first one I tried but Metropolis is even better since neither scouts.] Remember Spades vs Lucifron is a showmatch. That means it's more like GSL where you prep for your opponent rather than going up against some random guy on ladder. At 3:30 Spades has LucifroN's location, one refinery, and two buildings. The only options are 2 rax or rax/factory and 2 rax makes even less sense than scouting only using the mini-map. To be clear, overall I think it is more likely than not he was cheating and the Scv scout does look suspicious even with everything I wrote above, but if I were on a jury I'd be #8 of 12 angry men at this point. [Or Cousin Vinny for you kids who haven't watched the old classics.]
LOL you clearly aren't very good at StarCraft. The argument was that you don't send a worker scout and don't ever refer back to it or look at the buildings it has scouted out. Obviously the Koreans are confident enough to play blindly. Spades sent out a worker but retrieved NO information from it.
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On June 05 2012 16:46 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:45 KawaiiRice wrote:
there was a playhem a while ago where Spades played Golden, I don't remember and don't have replay, maybe it was a semis or finals match
on daybreak spades had no scouting whatsoever and didn't even know if hive was done and started 3 extra starports making like 5 vikings at a time without even knowing about hive or a spire. thought that was pretty funny. Well since playhem appearently doesn't have delay on their stream (which honestly boggles my mind), that might just be stream cheating, which while still bad, is nowhere near as bad as hacking.
not that it really matters because both are completely dishonest (now i feel weird saying this), but i think stream cheating a tourney is worse than cheating on ladder.
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Btw, did Spades even win the showmatch against LucifroN?
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On June 05 2012 16:49 dvorakftw wrote:For everyone complaining about Spades' Scv 'mini-map scouting' saying no pro would ever do anything like that: 1. Please download the MLG Orlando championship bracket replay pack2. Go into folder 9 [note: I had to load the replay from in Starcraft, I couldn't click to launch] 3. Watch MKP vs STBomber on Metropolis 4. Go to 5 minutes in and tell us how much either player has scouted the other For those who just want the answer -- Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes. Neither scouts the other AT ALL for 5 minutes. And before anyone starts detailing all the reasons that situation is different, I don't care. The fact remains Spades does more scouting in his game in 3:30 minutes than either MLG champ Bomber or MLG champ MKP do in 5 minutes, which in their case was NONE AT ALL. This alone destroys the Scv scouting argument. [And btw don't think I spent a lot of time looking for this example. It was the third one I tried. The first two were the other games in the series. Bomber never scouts MarineKing so I could have used literally the first one I tried but Metropolis is even better since neither scouts.] Remember Spades vs Lucifron is a showmatch. That means it's more like GSL where you prep for your opponent rather than going up against some random guy on ladder. At 3:30 Spades has LucifroN's location, one refinery, and two buildings. The only options are 2 rax or rax/factory and 2 rax makes even less sense than scouting only using the mini-map. To be clear, overall I think it is more likely than not he was cheating and the Scv scout does look suspicious even with everything I wrote above, but if I were on a jury I'd be #8 of 12 angry men at this point. [Or Cousin Vinny for you kids who haven't watched the old classics.]
I'm confused, you wrote such a long post and failed to notice the GIGANTIC difference between the two issues. They did not scout to save SCV mining time because they felt safe against what ever they thought was coming, where as spades actually sends his SCV to the other persons base and has it leave with out looking at his scv or ANY buildings at all by the other player or even the 2nd gas. Sends the scv via right click[on the mini map lol] and right clicks it back home w/o ever looking at a single thing in the other guys base..
You won't find any korean pro doing that.
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On June 05 2012 16:46 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:43 Brutaxilos wrote:
Just something I realized the OP's name drolets is backwards for stelord. Does that provide any hints...? well it's also droplets without the P. more hints?
It also could be Dr. Olets. Anyone go to a Dr. Olets?
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I don't see how any pro wanting to be world class would do this kind of thing. If you use it you rely on it and then you are completely unable to play in "offline" events, events where you don't use your own computer. It would be completely stupid and illogical to hack.
Discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.
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On June 05 2012 16:55 Greentellon wrote:
I don't see how any pro wanting to be world class would do this kind of thing. If you use it you rely on it and then you are completely unable to play in "offline" events, events where you don't use your own computer. It would be completely stupid and illogical to hack.
Discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.
Believe it or not, there is a very large number of players who only play on ladder, or only play online tourneys.
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In the game where spades is top right and lucifron bottom right. He looks into the fog of war to build a CC. (2nd expo)
On Catz stream, someone posted and talks about this, yet they neglect to go back and see what happened.
Point being, he looks into the fog of war but doesn't "screen lock".
Catz is probably just mad because Team Reign acquired Root's players when they disbanded instead of going to complexity gaming. Thus, why trust anyone that is heavily biased.
In a courtroom, the jury doesn't know the person on trial. So why have these idiots with their biases?
After furthering analyzing my case given here. I can't help but to come to the conclusion that Catz loves dicks in and around his mouth.
Case closed.
User was banned for this post.
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On June 05 2012 16:50 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:45 KawaiiRice wrote:
there was a playhem a while ago where Spades played Golden, I don't remember and don't have replay, maybe it was a semis or finals match
on daybreak spades had no scouting whatsoever and didn't even know if hive was done and started 3 extra starports making like 5 vikings at a time without even knowing about hive or a spire. thought that was pretty funny. as a pro you might give some better insight, i've seen blind starport play many times, and sometimes it lost the Terran the game cuz it was all ultra. Im not saying it's not suspicious, and i think he's probably hacking, but at least the "big names" should maintain a level of professionalism when commenting on this heated issue. I also wonder who's smurf is the OP, im curious if the admins IP checked him, no way he's a forum newbie
They said earlier that the IP was unique.
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Italy12248 Posts
edit: ops remove this plz.
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Italy12248 Posts
On June 05 2012 16:56 Dissonance23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:50 Geo.Rion wrote:On June 05 2012 16:45 KawaiiRice wrote:
there was a playhem a while ago where Spades played Golden, I don't remember and don't have replay, maybe it was a semis or finals match
on daybreak spades had no scouting whatsoever and didn't even know if hive was done and started 3 extra starports making like 5 vikings at a time without even knowing about hive or a spire. thought that was pretty funny. as a pro you might give some better insight, i've seen blind starport play many times, and sometimes it lost the Terran the game cuz it was all ultra. Im not saying it's not suspicious, and i think he's probably hacking, but at least the "big names" should maintain a level of professionalism when commenting on this heated issue. I also wonder who's smurf is the OP, im curious if the admins IP checked him, no way he's a forum newbie They said earlier that the IP was unique.
He/she might have posted from an internet cafe rather than his/her home though.
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On June 05 2012 16:48 cost2010 wrote:
The other thing one really should do when analyzing suspicious replays is stripping them of all playernames (and probably of hotkeys) and mixing them with replays of random other progamers - you only have an argument to stand on if the suspicious players' replays get flagged (statistically) significantly more often than those of other players.
At this point we have no idea how suspicious a "normal" game looks once you approach it with the same set of expectations and biases as you do with the game of a potential maphacker.
The methodology people in this thread does absolutely nothing to deal with confirmation bias which is absurd given the gravity of the accusations.
To followup on this point with the other post I just did, watch the Bomber vs MarineKing game on Antiga from MLG Orlando that I linked in the other post from Bomber's point of view, pretend it was Spades, and just look how long he keeps the camera in his corner of the map at the start and all the times the camera doesn't move for seconds.
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On June 05 2012 16:54 ZenithM wrote:
Btw, did Spades even win the showmatch against LucifroN?
No he did not, he lost 4-3.
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EPT
