|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Mirhi (former owner of Team Reign) responds with information on past stream cheating 6/4/12 at 11:13 PM EST + Show Spoiler +Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Wait... WHAT?! Whoa whoa whoa
1. Accusing Koreans of stream cheating based on what ONE person says seems pretty ridiculous too. The Korean professional gamers that I talk to, are friends with, and have worked with seriously sweat blood and tears to get to where they are now. Why would Koreans, such as Leenock, jeopardize their heavily time-invested career by doing something that's obviously going to get caught one day? That's just like a low blow. If anything, the Korean netizen mob-mentality would be even quicker to raise pitchforks and such, as judged from previous progamers (will not mention but you guys should know the people I'm talking about) receiving serious backlash from the Korean community. I believe that they would actually NOT cheat in order to maintain their pride, not vice versa.
2. Let's just say that Koreans do cheat for like 0.01 seconds. Just because they cheat doesn't make it right for others to cheat. That's like saying "oh there are lots of murderers in the world, so if I'm a murderer, that's not punishable by law right?" That makes no logical sense to me.
Oh them pitchforks. If Spades is innocent, this is like the worst thing a community can do to an innocent player... :\
P.S. Artist talks about the misunderstanding between himself and Mirhi on PlayXP. It seems like Artist feels the responsibility for the accusations that Mirhi made despite apparently not having said anything of that nature. Poor Artist ):
|
On June 05 2012 16:05 mr_tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:57 schaf wrote:On June 05 2012 15:48 mr_tolkien wrote: I don't get at all why people are attacking the OP. You can't do anything more from a «simple user» point of view. He did a lot of research and did only put it forward. The «conclusion» only comes from analysis that YOU should be able to do as well. If you can't, don't accuse the OP of putting words into your mouth, just sit back and enjoy the drama while waiting for an official reply to this problem.
This kind of problem shouldn't be handled by forum crawlers playing the game once in a blue moon, but by competent people. Yeah, but why post it then? he could have messaged some pro players on TL to have a look at it, worst thing that could happen would be 10 *i don't have time for this* and he could have posted it then. And I disagree, his research is biased. I think many fishy things can be explained if you play high-level and gamble at certain things. Well I know that even if I'm not a complete unknown in the community I wouldn't go bothering guys who have nothing to do with this. Posting it publicly then letting it unfold is a very good option in fact. Of course the OP is not 100% unbiased, since he spent all that time trying to prove Spade's innocence. But his post is well documented and is made mainly of facts, so it has its place on TeamLiquid. The aftermath has NOTHING to do with him, he just gave valuable information to the community, which deemed it important, and it triggered the attention of the higher spheres. People should give the OP a break. What he did was the right choice.
I don't know, I think you can estimate the amount of hate Spades would get before posting it. And as I said, it wouldn't be outrageous to write a PM to Incontrol, Thorzain and some other guys. If they don't have time for it, they'll answer or not, but it would have given the OP more legitimacy (is this a word ^^).
His action would have made sense if he was convinced that he caught Spades and had undeniable evidence. But you don't put question marks in your title then.
On June 05 2012 16:03 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:57 schaf wrote:On June 05 2012 15:48 mr_tolkien wrote: I don't get at all why people are attacking the OP. You can't do anything more from a «simple user» point of view. He did a lot of research and did only put it forward. The «conclusion» only comes from analysis that YOU should be able to do as well. If you can't, don't accuse the OP of putting words into your mouth, just sit back and enjoy the drama while waiting for an official reply to this problem.
This kind of problem shouldn't be handled by forum crawlers playing the game once in a blue moon, but by competent people. Yeah, but why post it then? he could have messaged some pro players on TL to have a look at it, worst thing that could happen would be 10 *i don't have time for this* and he could have posted it then. And I disagree, his research is biased. I think many fishy things can be explained if you play high-level and gamble at certain things. his research might be biased, but some pros tend to agree with him on some points too. obviously if it was gamble play etc, then it won't be a problem but some parts are just really fishy that he just states it as a random luck etc
It's good that pros took a look at it and I value their opinion. But it doesn't make the OP right retroactively (also, is this a word?). I'm not discussing if he is correct with his accusations, but in the form he made it public.
|
Very sad if this is true, but really...why cheat? You aren't getting any better at the game by doing this. All these map hackers, to me atleast, rank right up there with the ladder warriors who only ladder for points. Though I guess the two go hand in hand to some extent.
And for WW to thank the community for ruining another career? Really? The only possible way this could ruin his career would be if he WAS actually cheating, which his past history and his responces to this thread, plus the amount of evidence being shown is pointing to that he is cheating once again. Only person to thank for his career being ruined is Spades himself.
|
On June 05 2012 16:08 Pwnographics wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote: Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. That being said, Spades has made a pretty half-hearted defense. If he was really so shocked and angry he'd be doing everything in his power, tooth and nail to be debunking everything said about him. Most of his statements include something along the lines of being sad that his career is being ruined, and it just makes him look even more suspicious. His arguments of 'if i was hacking why wouldn't i have defended this or done that' can be rebutted by something as siimple as 'it would be way too obvious if you had taken full advantage of your map hack'. And stating that most of the actions were 'luck or guesses' doesn't really help his case. If I were him I'd do my best to replay those games in my head and see what it may have been that made me commit to such suspicious play.
I hope after all this he really is guilty, because if he isn't he doesn't deserve this. Many players have a good game sense sometimes and commit to actions out of feeling or luck. I've done things like randomly moved my units and accidentally intercepted a drop before, things happen. So hopefully someone does further analysis on his replay packs so a solid conclusion can come out of this. I think that if this game is the only one out of a hundred where he seems obviously suspicious we can chalk it all up to luck and game sense. CatZ did go over his past games, and the analysis was that he played completely differently in the bo7 compared to the games he provided where he didn't hack because he had maphacks. People play differently in scheduled matches compared to their ladder games alot of the time, mainly because they practise with a partner in custom games in preparation for something new, so as to not be so predictable
|
On June 05 2012 16:15 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:08 Pwnographics wrote:On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote: Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. That being said, Spades has made a pretty half-hearted defense. If he was really so shocked and angry he'd be doing everything in his power, tooth and nail to be debunking everything said about him. Most of his statements include something along the lines of being sad that his career is being ruined, and it just makes him look even more suspicious. His arguments of 'if i was hacking why wouldn't i have defended this or done that' can be rebutted by something as siimple as 'it would be way too obvious if you had taken full advantage of your map hack'. And stating that most of the actions were 'luck or guesses' doesn't really help his case. If I were him I'd do my best to replay those games in my head and see what it may have been that made me commit to such suspicious play.
I hope after all this he really is guilty, because if he isn't he doesn't deserve this. Many players have a good game sense sometimes and commit to actions out of feeling or luck. I've done things like randomly moved my units and accidentally intercepted a drop before, things happen. So hopefully someone does further analysis on his replay packs so a solid conclusion can come out of this. I think that if this game is the only one out of a hundred where he seems obviously suspicious we can chalk it all up to luck and game sense. CatZ did go over his past games, and the analysis was that he played completely differently in the bo7 compared to the games he provided where he didn't hack because he had maphacks. People play differently in scheduled matches compared to their ladder games alot of the time, mainly because they practise with a partner in custom games in preparation for something new, so as to not be so predictable
You haven't read a word in this thread, have you?
|
On June 05 2012 16:14 Fueled wrote:[...] And for WW to thank the community for ruining another career? Really? The only possible way this could ruin his career would be if he WAS actually cheating, which his past history and his responces to this thread, plus the amount of evidence being shown is pointing to that he is cheating once again. Only person to thank for his career being ruined is Spades himself.
No, I doubt this will get forgotten if there is no clear proof for one or the other side. And then it will not be interpretated int eh way that Spades was innocent.
|
If in fact he is cheating, I really don't get the ruining career comments. If he is cheating/needs to, he probably wouldn't have a career in the first place if it wasn't for cheating. It's like someone losing counterfeit money. It's not real to begin with. Not the best analogy, obv, but hopefully the gist is relayed.
|
On June 05 2012 16:15 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:08 Pwnographics wrote:On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote: Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. That being said, Spades has made a pretty half-hearted defense. If he was really so shocked and angry he'd be doing everything in his power, tooth and nail to be debunking everything said about him. Most of his statements include something along the lines of being sad that his career is being ruined, and it just makes him look even more suspicious. His arguments of 'if i was hacking why wouldn't i have defended this or done that' can be rebutted by something as siimple as 'it would be way too obvious if you had taken full advantage of your map hack'. And stating that most of the actions were 'luck or guesses' doesn't really help his case. If I were him I'd do my best to replay those games in my head and see what it may have been that made me commit to such suspicious play.
I hope after all this he really is guilty, because if he isn't he doesn't deserve this. Many players have a good game sense sometimes and commit to actions out of feeling or luck. I've done things like randomly moved my units and accidentally intercepted a drop before, things happen. So hopefully someone does further analysis on his replay packs so a solid conclusion can come out of this. I think that if this game is the only one out of a hundred where he seems obviously suspicious we can chalk it all up to luck and game sense. CatZ did go over his past games, and the analysis was that he played completely differently in the bo7 compared to the games he provided where he didn't hack because he had maphacks. People play differently in scheduled matches compared to their ladder games alot of the time, mainly because they practise with a partner in custom games in preparation for something new, so as to not be so predictable so in match games Spades never looks into fog of war, but in practice games he does. And in match games he only uses the minimap to scan and scout while in practice games he scrolls. Sorry, those are two completely different habits. You aren't able to just play differently regarding those methods.
|
This may not be the appropriate place to say this, but I'm sick of people with a voice of power in the e-sports community unleashing the dogs of war with their near cult followings at people regarding the most fringe scenarios imaginable. No matter if Spades was innocent the entire time or not, this guy is shattered from this. IF it were true, I'd agree completely and then I'd say fuck the guy, get rid of him. This is not nearly not enough evidence nor conclusive enough to convict someone of such accusations.
As for his past, BW was years ago, he was a younger man and maybe he didn't think of the entire e-sports world blowing up and becoming a legit reality for a lifestyle and career as it is now. So maybe he just said screw it and cheated for fun. Lame? Absolutely. And that should matter for something but this is an entire new platform and I think all slates should be cleared. This comes down to that there should be a serious upgrade on anti-hack software to be the hand of God, something infallible and not us. What's sad is that's not a reality yet, and probably won't be, so this is the best we've got, and it's going to do nothing but hurt the community no matter what.
Blood is always shed when you use a method like this. Team Liquid and its community shouldn't be the Salem Witch Trials.
The play DOES look really weird, it's fishy and if I had a gun to my head and say if he cheated or not, I'd say yes. Does my opinion count for anything? No, and neither does almost every comment here with very few exceptions from other professional players.
edit: grammar
|
Here are my thoughts on these games. Take note that everything here is completely circumstantial and should not be taken as hard evidence that Spades is a maphacker. Rather, this write-up is a series of observations that can be answered by either one of two possible scenarios:
1. Spades is a maphacker. 2. Spades is just a really, really, really bad (albeit lucky) player.
I just looked over the Tal'Darim game. I'm not going to claim that this is proof of maphacking, I just thought that it was strange that Spades uses his first scan at 9:23 and then doesn't scan again until approximately the 31:00 minute mark. This evidence is entirely circumstantial, mind you, but it is strange that in a TvT, perhaps the most positional of all the matchups, he is almost never scanning. By comparison, Lucifron scans somewhere in Spades' base every couple in-game minutes like clockwork.
However, something in your favor is that, in that Tal'Darim Altar game, you somehow manage to let Lucifron's army sneak right past your army outside of his natural at around the 14:00 mark. It would seem to be improbable that you are maphacking if you allowed that to happen.
In your daybreak game, you never bother to check the timings that Lucifron takes his natural or third until you decide to drop him at the 12:30 mark. Again, this does not imply that you must be a maphacker, it could also be explained another way: you actually play at a platinum league level.
In the Shakuras game you hardly bother to spot expansion timings, or scan to see where your opponent is positioned. In fact, there is even a point (at about 15:30) where you get dropped in your main and lose a bunch of SCVs. You even bothered to to built a sensor tower, so, maphacks or not, you should have seen the drop coming. However, you do not respond to the drop whatsoever until you get map pings on your minimap from your SCVs dieing.
Might as well go over all the games. On Entombed Valley, when you pull up with your tanks at Lucifron's ramp at the 7:30 mark (and I won't even go into all the stuff about sieging outside of bunker range, it could have been luck), you have vikings to scout out what's on top of the ramp. It would seem to be very obvious that you would want to peek (no pun intended) with the vikings into the area around the ramp to get some intel on, say, bunker placement, marine count, tank count, if there was even an expansion up at all. Instead, you simply siege within vision from anything placed at the top of the ramp, an extremely amateur move.
On to Antiga Shipyard. After scanning the main at around 6:30, you then make no attempt to scout for the timing of the natural or the third base. Then, at the 20 minute mark, you decide to scout for the fourth base? Plus, when typical pros scout for hidden expansions, they send a single marine there to check for the expo. After showing so little regard for scouting your opponents other expansions, it makes no sense why you would be SO diligent as to send six marines to scout for a fourth base that you should have no reason to expect. You must have been extremely lucky to have stumbled into the hidden expansion like this.
Additionally, to address your claim that you could not possibly be maphacking if you're losing these matches. You can still maphack and play poorly enough to lose. Maphacking only gives you unlimited scouting of your opponent. It doesn't guarantee that you will micro well, macro well, do your builds correctly, manage your lategame composition correctly, or many other skills that go into winning a game. Your multitask and map awareness are so bad that it is difficult to really assess whether or not you used maphacks because, even if you could peek at the fog of war, you don't have the multitasking ability to properly respond to it, so you would still lose.
Let's also be clear here. If you want to explain this all by simply saying that you were playing badly, then it's obvious that you were playing really badly. This is not "an off day for a GM" badly, this is "I should be in Diamond league" badly. Let me lay it out for you:
1. You almost never scout any expansion timings. 2. You almost never scan or scout to see the position of your opponent's army. 3. You never exhibit any sort of micro techniques. 4. You can't multitask to handle two-pronged attacks, even when you have a sensor tower built to spot them ahead of time.
P.S. Don't act so uppity about all the suspicion being thrown your way. These things didn't happen to you by pure chance. You were caught cheating previously, so you have lost the privilege to not have extra scrutiny placed upon you. Similarly, criminals spend the rest of their lives under the suspicion of others, it is the punishment that cheaters and criminals must bear for having violated the trust of the community.
|
On June 05 2012 15:57 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote: Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. That being said, Spades has made a pretty half-hearted defense. If he was really so shocked and angry he'd be doing everything in his power, tooth and nail to be debunking everything said about him. Most of his statements include something along the lines of being sad that his career is being ruined, and it just makes him look even more suspicious. His arguments of 'if i was hacking why wouldn't i have defended this or done that' can be rebutted by something as siimple as 'it would be way too obvious if you had taken full advantage of your map hack'. And stating that most of the actions were 'luck or guesses' doesn't really help his case. If I were him I'd do my best to replay those games in my head and see what it may have been that made me commit to such suspicious play.
I hope after all this he really is guilty, because if he isn't he doesn't deserve this. Many players have a good game sense sometimes and commit to actions out of feeling or luck. I've done things like randomly moved my units and accidentally intercepted a drop before, things happen. So hopefully someone does further analysis on his replay packs so a solid conclusion can come out of this. I think that if this game is the only one out of a hundred where he seems obviously suspicious we can chalk it all up to luck and game sense. Only in the dramatic world of Starcraft is a player found guilty until proven innocent. Point being, he shouldn't have to do jackshit. The burden of proof should lie on the accuser. The fact that OP, on a smurf account, decided to create a thread with his analysis is disgusting. Why? Because at this point it doesn't matter if he cheated or not, his imagine is ruined. The OP should have started by contacting other players with his "evidence" and when he has enough support and collected enough replays (by contacting Spades team) he should have created the thread. He basically threw the shit out there, caused a shitstorm and baam, Spades is found guilty until he proves himself innocent.
To anyone who has a rudimentary understanding of SC2, there is more than enough evidence to state with certainty that Spades was hacking in many of the replays. There are actions that you can see for yourself in which he does that are not only improbable and inconsistent with his live streaming, but impossible based on the sc2 engine.
You've made the conscious decision to ignore the evidence which has no baring on the facts that again, can be seen for yourself, with your own eyes. When you decide to put opinions and feelings aside and look only at the facts you'll realize that people aren't finding Spades guilty based on their dislike for him or their warmonging, but because based on the evidence it's obvious that he was in fact hacking.
|
On June 05 2012 16:14 Fueled wrote: Very sad if this is true, but really...why cheat? You aren't getting any better at the game by doing this. All these map hackers, to me atleast, rank right up there with the ladder warriors who only ladder for points. Though I guess the two go hand in hand to some extent.
And for WW to thank the community for ruining another career? Really? The only possible way this could ruin his career would be if he WAS actually cheating, which his past history and his responces to this thread, plus the amount of evidence being shown is pointing to that he is cheating once again. Only person to thank for his career being ruined is Spades himself. "Ladder warriors" are as bad as "map hackers"? Well, maphacking is not so bad after all. I'll point out to you the difference: some are cheating, some aren't.
If Spades was really clean, we wouldn't find that many suspicious things at once, in fact he wouldn't even have to defend himself, because accusations would be too weak. It's like when you play on ladder and think to yourself "Man that guy must be cheating!" and then you watch the replay and find nothing conclusive, the guy was just pretty good. It's like that with Spades, except you actually find multiple cues in the same replay that he might maphack...
I have absolutely no sympathy for cheaters. If it ruins his "career" (if we can call it that), then all the better. I hope people won't go comparing it to orb's or Destiny's cases, because it's way worse than that.
|
On June 05 2012 15:51 stangstang wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:47 zergtossy wrote: How awkward do you think its going to be at the next MLG!? I mean with all these pro calling him out and such... i dont think this will be that bad. all he needs to do is play good at mlg to silence the people accusing him. if he really is NA GM#1 caliber player, he should get really far or even get out of the open bracket. not necessarily...
|
but he was once GM #1 rank. so its hard to be a legitimate #1 rank GM player and also look like a diamond caliber player.
|
Also "fun" detective note, before the title was changed to what it is currently, it was "? Spades Hacking ?". Which could either be a way of emphasizing the importance of questioning his play rather then acusing him of 100% being a hacker. Or just the way spanish people write an interrogative sentence, with an interrogation mark at the start and end of a sentence.
OP could be someone on Lucifron's team that witnessed the matches firsthand and though something suspicious was up, and then later rewatched the replays. Which would add weight to the possibility that it was just someone who had suspicions and investigated and not a personal attack against Spades because of a ongoing grudge.
|
Mod edit for plagiarism.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
Find those times when he's supposedly not doing anything, and check it in sc2gears. Or write the time of big screen locks and someone else will (myself included).
|
Martijn representing Western Wolves (Spades's current team) responds 6/4/12 at 11:21 PM EST
Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Wow, that's such a horrible post by a team manager. It looks like someone told him about the right thing to do: make a public statement, state you are analyzing this and are taking it seriously, but he pretty much copy-pasted that part and added what's really on his mind.
I do not understand how anyone could think that cheating is a inter-team issue. If a player cheats, there are a number of concerned parties: tournament organizers that fear for the integrity of their tournament, other teams that might want to hire him later, even fans who in the end need to choose who to support and who not to. It's not like when there's cheating in another sport, the team disciplines the player/athlete. There's always a governing body that generally bans the person for years and years. Think illegal drug use in the Olympics...
It's equally bad to go after the OP's identity. If anonymous tips weren't acceptable to the police, half our crime fighting wouldn't even happen. You need them to get the information in the first place. So if the OP is harassed this time (as it has been by the team manager and others), we won't have another person come out to reveal hacking. We'll just never know.
All in all, very disappointing by Martijn.
|
On June 05 2012 16:27 stangstang wrote: but he was once GM #1 rank. so its hard to be a legitimate #1 rank GM player and also look like a diamond caliber player. back when he was #1 GM the MMR was weird, anybody in top 1000 could play each other
maybe he just ran good and encountered a lot of mediocre players
also I fail to see how he ever looks like a diamond caliber player...
|
On June 05 2012 16:31 oGsKneecap wrote: This 'community' today looks like a group of monkeys hurling shit at each other. One mediocre player is accused by an anonymous poster of hacking in a showmatch with no prize. Everyone feels they need to add their opinions-- many do so without watching the replays. Even a former hacker chimes in. A former manager tosses in his opinion; while saying nothing about the actual incident at hand, he accuses Koreans of stream cheating, despite it being completely unrelated. More foreign 'pro' players will chime in, rather than practising the hours a day required to compete on a global scale. I can tell you what MVP is not doing today-- Giving a shit about this drama on TeamLiquid.
of course he's not, he can't read english for shit
|
|
|
|