|
07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 15:48 mr_tolkien wrote:
I don't get at all why people are attacking the OP. You can't do anything more from a «simple user» point of view. He did a lot of research and did only put it forward. The «conclusion» only comes from analysis that YOU should be able to do as well. If you can't, don't accuse the OP of putting words into your mouth, just sit back and enjoy the drama while waiting for an official reply to this problem.
This kind of problem shouldn't be handled by forum crawlers playing the game once in a blue moon, but by competent people.
Yeah, but why post it then? he could have messaged some pro players on TL to have a look at it, worst thing that could happen would be 10 *i don't have time for this* and he could have posted it then.
And I disagree, his research is biased. I think many fishy things can be explained if you play high-level and gamble at certain things.
|
So I assume TL mods 100% know who OP is (an obvious smurf). Wonder if they'll tell us :D
|
I'm just glad after the analysis and the 2 former team mates coming out about him, he will leave the scene. Never liked him, he did scummy shit and fucked over team Reign. Good bye and I have some words for western wolves about how they handled the situation.
|
there is zero accountablity in this thread. people seem to think that free speech on the internet is a good idea because some people kick and scream when shit is moderated. situations like this are why forums are moderated and filtered. i think it would have been much more fair to spades if this had this been moved to a private forum and vetted before it was handed off to the mob.
i can't really blame the TL staff for being ill prepaired to handle this. however, in light of recent events like people directly contacting sponsors, they definately should consider taking a more direct approach to handling if not dealing with issues like these. a single anonymous source should never be allowed to wield so much power without being held accountable.
|
On June 05 2012 15:58 Megaliskuu wrote:
So I assume TL mods 100% know who OP is (an obvious smurf). Wonder if they'll tell us :D
Lucifron himself!! :O
Just kidding, of course.
|
On June 05 2012 15:56 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:55 mTwTT1 wrote:On June 05 2012 15:54 DamageControL wrote:On June 05 2012 15:53 jarf1337 wrote:On June 05 2012 15:52 DamageControL wrote:On June 05 2012 15:50 starcraft911 wrote:On June 05 2012 15:37 Numeta wrote:
People who cheat will always cheat again. And about your career being ruined? You did this to yourself. Also. Get a fucking job That's not true. I was introduced to MH back in broodwar by a rl friend and used it for 5-6 games before my account was banned. That was the one and only period of time I cheated in any online game. I'm sure there are lot of people out there who get banned and that process of getting banned makes them not want to do it again. I suppose if your perceived punishment isn't enough then you could go back to hacking, but for me losing my top 10 ladder ID for using a hack I didnt need to win games was enough to make me rethink my game. Spades hacked in the past, but to me that's irrelevant to this thread. People can change. Indeed. There was once a cheater named testie I do recall, who went on to become one of the best foreign players in the BW foreign scene. Who now plays MOBAs all day long... not such a happy ending. haha well originally it was just gonna be a snappy "Remember Testie?" comment. But then I realized he's not a household name anymore. And...well does he hack at MOBAs ? :D hes playing hon by choice tho ;p, he would have been a sick sc2 player Yea, i saw him get shit stomped by a diamond guy while HON was down. Talk about fallen from grace.
You realise he doesn't play SC2, right? He was only ever a BW player in the community, just playing the game super casually now. Take Flash away from the game for years and he's gonna suck ass too. In fact, I'd bet something of value (nothing comes to mind) that when Flash first started laddering SC2 he lost games to lowly Diamond players. Turns out you have to play games to be good at them, who knew?
|
On June 05 2012 15:58 Megaliskuu wrote:
So I assume TL mods 100% know who OP is (an obvious smurf). Wonder if they'll tell us :D
They don't know. Someone asked in website feedback about the OP of this thread and the mods stated this was an original IP and not a separate account of another TL user.
|
On June 05 2012 15:57 Soyuz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:39 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 15:28 Dox wrote:I'm surprised no-one has used SC2 Gears to analyse the replays yet. (I would, but work etc.) The guys over at SC2SEA just uncovered a maphacker today by using SC2 Gears to highlight a series of (falsely) reported in-game actions whilst screen locking was enabled. http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99793&postcount=559(Note that SC2 Gears won't acknowledge you selecting your opponents structures under the fog of war, but it will instead substitute these actions with false ones.) can any1 that has some time do it? seems like it could help a lot <3
detective tt1 should really take a look at this ^_^
|
On June 05 2012 15:58 multiversed wrote:
there is zero accountablity in this thread. people seem to think that free speech on the internet is a good idea because some people kick and scream when shit is moderated. situations like this are why forums are moderated and filtered. i think it would have been much more fair to spades if this had this been moved to a private forum and vetted before it was handed off to the mob.
i can't really blaim the TL staff for being ill prepaired to handle this. however, in light of recent events like people directly contacting sponsors, they definately should consider taking a more direct approach to handling if not dealing with issues like these. a single anonymous source should never be allowed to wield so much power without being held accountable.
This week, Spades. Which pro is going to get called out and run through the TL wringer next week?
Even if Spades is a hacker, this situation was handled poorly.
|
Okay, Artist himself has just posted on playxp:
link here http://www.playxp.com/sc2/bbs/view.php?article_id=4002840
rough translation:
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently"
"i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of understanding between me and the manager"
"i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole
"i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry"
"i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again"
"i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening"
"again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
|
On June 05 2012 15:58 Megaliskuu wrote:
So I assume TL mods 100% know who OP is (an obvious smurf). Wonder if they'll tell us :D
nope, they dont
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342350#2
Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:43 NrGmonk wrote:
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
|
If memory serves me right, not too long before Spades was caught hacking, he achieved number 1 on the WGT ladder, where all games were auto-uploaded. If anyone should be experienced at masking hacking, it should be this guy (you know people will be viewing your replays). I watched them and was simply confused. If you don't hack, you never really suspect others of hacking. I merely noticed that his macro wasn't good and he used comsat like a low level player would (not that it's rare).
Only real point is, obviously hacking makes a big difference. If you can't learn how to genuinely be good but you're aware that you dramatically increase your performance by cheating, I think once a cheater always a cheater isn't too far off the mark. You either have to be able to become good (legit) or there has to be a proper punishment/detriment. If you already know you can't cut it without cheating, and you have no morals, why not?
It might be a bit of a random post, but, logically, I just don't understand why someone that is driven to be known or w/e wouldn't relapse if this was their only way to do so.
How does his macro and mechanics compare to people at a similar level? I haven't watched any of his games. Merely a question that pops to mind given history.
|
On June 05 2012 16:00 Artok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:57 Soyuz wrote:On June 05 2012 15:39 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 15:28 Dox wrote:I'm surprised no-one has used SC2 Gears to analyse the replays yet. (I would, but work etc.) The guys over at SC2SEA just uncovered a maphacker today by using SC2 Gears to highlight a series of (falsely) reported in-game actions whilst screen locking was enabled. http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99793&postcount=559(Note that SC2 Gears won't acknowledge you selecting your opponents structures under the fog of war, but it will instead substitute these actions with false ones.) can any1 that has some time do it? seems like it could help a lot <3 detective tt1 should really take a look at this ^_^
He did, on stream, with catz, drewbie, and illusion.
|
On June 05 2012 15:57 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:48 mr_tolkien wrote:
I don't get at all why people are attacking the OP. You can't do anything more from a «simple user» point of view. He did a lot of research and did only put it forward. The «conclusion» only comes from analysis that YOU should be able to do as well. If you can't, don't accuse the OP of putting words into your mouth, just sit back and enjoy the drama while waiting for an official reply to this problem.
This kind of problem shouldn't be handled by forum crawlers playing the game once in a blue moon, but by competent people. Yeah, but why post it then? he could have messaged some pro players on TL to have a look at it, worst thing that could happen would be 10 *i don't have time for this* and he could have posted it then. And I disagree, his research is biased. I think many fishy things can be explained if you play high-level and gamble at certain things.
his research might be biased, but some pros tend to agree with him on some points too.
obviously if it was gamble play etc, then it won't be a problem but some parts are just really fishy that he just states it as a random luck etc
|
I don't know what else the OP could have done. Apart from a change of title to 'suspicious Spades gameplay', he has presented the evidence. If someone must put their career and reputation on the line to highlight lengthy evidence against a suggested hacker then no-one will come forward and hackers will reign free. Spades' career and reputation is also in tatters but A: he would have far more support if he'd not had to be caught hacking before (which he denied) and B: is there another way of bringing this evidence to light??
|
On June 05 2012 16:02 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 16:00 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 15:57 Soyuz wrote:On June 05 2012 15:39 Artok wrote:On June 05 2012 15:28 Dox wrote:I'm surprised no-one has used SC2 Gears to analyse the replays yet. (I would, but work etc.) The guys over at SC2SEA just uncovered a maphacker today by using SC2 Gears to highlight a series of (falsely) reported in-game actions whilst screen locking was enabled. http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99788&postcount=557http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p=99793&postcount=559(Note that SC2 Gears won't acknowledge you selecting your opponents structures under the fog of war, but it will instead substitute these actions with false ones.) can any1 that has some time do it? seems like it could help a lot <3 detective tt1 should really take a look at this ^_^ He did, on stream, with catz, drewbie, and illusion.
are you sure youre capable of reading? because i dont remember them checking sc2 gears.
|
On June 05 2012 15:57 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:48 mr_tolkien wrote:
I don't get at all why people are attacking the OP. You can't do anything more from a «simple user» point of view. He did a lot of research and did only put it forward. The «conclusion» only comes from analysis that YOU should be able to do as well. If you can't, don't accuse the OP of putting words into your mouth, just sit back and enjoy the drama while waiting for an official reply to this problem.
This kind of problem shouldn't be handled by forum crawlers playing the game once in a blue moon, but by competent people. Yeah, but why post it then? he could have messaged some pro players on TL to have a look at it, worst thing that could happen would be 10 *i don't have time for this* and he could have posted it then. And I disagree, his research is biased. I think many fishy things can be explained if you play high-level and gamble at certain things.
Well I know that even if I'm not a complete unknown in the community I wouldn't go bothering guys who have nothing to do with this. Posting it publicly then letting it unfold is a very good option in fact.
Of course the OP is not 100% unbiased, since he spent all that time trying to prove that Spade is hacking. But his post is well documented and is made mainly of facts, so it has its place on TeamLiquid. The aftermath has NOTHING to do with him, he just gave valuable information to the community, which deemed it important, and it triggered the attention of the higher spheres.
People should give the OP a break. What he did was the right choice.
|
On June 05 2012 16:02 playa wrote:
If memory serves me right, not too long before Spades was caught hacking, he achieved number 1 on the WGT ladder, where all games were auto-uploaded. If anyone should be experienced at masking hacking, it should be this guy (you know people will be viewing your replays). I watched them and was simply confused. If you don't hack, you never really suspect others of hacking. I merely noticed that his macro wasn't good and he used comsat like a low level player would (not that it's rare).
Only real point is, obviously hacking makes a big difference. If you can't learn how to genuinely be good but you're aware that you dramatically increase your performance by cheating, I think once a cheater always a cheater isn't too far off the mark. You either have to be able to become good (legit) or there has to be a proper punishment/detriment. If you already know you can't cut it without cheating, and you have no morals, why not?
It might be a bit of a random post, but, logically, I just don't understand why someone that is driven to be known or w/e wouldn't relapse if this was their only way to do so.
How does his macro and mechanics compare to people at a similar level? I haven't watched any of his games. Merely a question that pops to mind given history.
This post has no place here. His past is his past, this thread concerns only his SC2 carreer.
You have a point in your last question, but for that I would say: wait for the next MLG
|
On June 05 2012 15:55 SkelA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote:
Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. Why would you hack in a practice ladder games ? If someone uses hacks it doesnt means that he will hack 100% of his games. He just picked to hack in a showmatch where there is a chance to get recognition/money.
I like how this exact response is why spades didn't want to upload the replay pack in the first place.. and people called him a hacker for knowing responses like this were coming. :/
Aside from that my only thought is a thorough distaste for 'Oh he's just a mediocre NA player and Lucifron is one of the top EU players right now so he shouldn't have done well and that's more evidence to him hacking.' Really guys? So anytime someone new comes onto the scene it's cuz they're hacking? No good players can ever have bad days? Or no unknown players can ever get lucky or get better at the game? Every cinderella story in any tournament ever is just cuz of hacks? This seems pretty stupid imo.
Yeah yeah spades hacked before and blah blah but nothing about that makes the 'Lucifron SHOULD have crushed him.' argument at all valid.
|
On June 05 2012 15:51 Xyik wrote:
Has anyone analyzed the 50-100 replays Spades uploaded? I think those would be pretty good evidence that he does not hack. That being said, Spades has made a pretty half-hearted defense. If he was really so shocked and angry he'd be doing everything in his power, tooth and nail to be debunking everything said about him. Most of his statements include something along the lines of being sad that his career is being ruined, and it just makes him look even more suspicious. His arguments of 'if i was hacking why wouldn't i have defended this or done that' can be rebutted by something as siimple as 'it would be way too obvious if you had taken full advantage of your map hack'. And stating that most of the actions were 'luck or guesses' doesn't really help his case. If I were him I'd do my best to replay those games in my head and see what it may have been that made me commit to such suspicious play.
I hope after all this he really is guilty, because if he isn't he doesn't deserve this. Many players have a good game sense sometimes and commit to actions out of feeling or luck. I've done things like randomly moved my units and accidentally intercepted a drop before, things happen. So hopefully someone does further analysis on his replay packs so a solid conclusion can come out of this. I think that if this game is the only one out of a hundred where he seems obviously suspicious we can chalk it all up to luck and game sense.
CatZ did go over his past games, and the analysis was that he played completely differently in the bo7 compared to the games he provided where he didn't hack because he had maphacks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
