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On May 12 2012 05:27 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:25 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 05:15 Integra wrote:On May 12 2012 05:04 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 04:55 FLuE wrote:On May 12 2012 04:51 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 03:47 FLuE wrote:On May 12 2012 03:16 s3rp wrote:On May 12 2012 02:54 mrjpark wrote:On May 12 2012 02:26 Greenei wrote:
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energy is not a comparable concept though. 50 energy on a queen aren't wort nearly as much as 50 energy on a oc (if you have more then 2 queens). but it's a standard zerg/toss tactic to deny the worth of mules when the topic is scans and exaggerate it when the topic is mules. No, the argument is pretty simple. Dropping a scan does not 'cost' you money, you just mine it slower. Dropping a mule gives you a big boost in economy at the cost of energy. The effect mules is actually huge, pros have been able to almost come back from having zero scv's because of the impact of mules in low economy games. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, mind you, but that mules are in a way a luxury more than a right. While you design your production around having mules, this is with the knowledge that if you drop a scan instead, your production will be inefficient -- it is a conscious decision you made.On May 12 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:
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I love when people cite the upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Like we are going to do a lot with the whole extra half a sentry for +2/+2. Clearly this man fears the 8 observer rush comming 80 second earlier. Snipe is the only nerf for terran where they went to far. It should have just done less damage to massive and left it as it was. It's not the cost itself that people are complaining about, it's how much faster Protoss can pump out upgrades, especially with the use of chronoboost. It may seem minimal, but you can see the difference it has made in how pro Terrans have reacted with their double engineering bay timings. They basically have to cross their fingers and hope Protoss doesn't just constantly upgrade because they won't be able to keep up. In the early game before you have all your bases saturated scanning effectly slows you down ALOT if you scan. They're the Larva Inject / Chronoboost of Terran since Terran can't produce workers as fast. Early scan hurt as much as building Units when you don't want to as a Zerg probably more. With 3-4 Orbitals and plenty of SCV's mining Mules become a luxury but in the early and midgame they are what keep the Terran eco on even footing. You are missing the point. I'm not addressing the idea of using a scan vs a mule and how it affects the game. I'm saying I'm sick of seeing people say scans cost money. Those 270 minerals don't disappear. Scans don't cost minerals. End of story. scans cost BANK its either mule or scan do the math There is no math to be done. They don't cost bank. They cost energy. Again, I'm not talking about the OPPORTUNITY COST of using a scan vs. a mule. I'm simply stating that this idea that a scan costs 270 minerals which has been stated several times in this thread to argue about creep denial isn't a true statement. It isn't that tough to understand. a scan will remove 270 additional minerals in income you would have had what does that mean to u? This is something allot Terrans are having trouble coming with terms with. During a 20 minute game using your scan instead of mules those few vital times when scan really matters, far outweighs those extra total 810 minerals you would otherwise have. really that sum of minerals doesn't matter squat compared to the total mineral amount you would had collected and the actual intel you would had gotten for that particular situation. "that particular situation" in what pro games do you see that first 50 energy used as a scan? do you watch gsl? Soon as those Ts get their orbital its scan scan scan! no they're so greedy with mules dt rushes frequently work on them Point of the post was that there exists situations where scan is better than MULES.
But those aren't in the early stages of games especially in TvZ.
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On May 12 2012 05:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:27 Integra wrote:On May 12 2012 05:25 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 05:15 Integra wrote:On May 12 2012 05:04 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 04:55 FLuE wrote:On May 12 2012 04:51 zergmacro34 wrote:On May 12 2012 03:47 FLuE wrote:On May 12 2012 03:16 s3rp wrote:On May 12 2012 02:54 mrjpark wrote:
[quote]
No, the argument is pretty simple. Dropping a scan does not 'cost' you money, you just mine it slower. Dropping a mule gives you a big boost in economy at the cost of energy. The effect mules is actually huge, pros have been able to almost come back from having zero scv's because of the impact of mules in low economy games. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, mind you, but that mules are in a way a luxury more than a right. While you design your production around having mules, this is with the knowledge that if you drop a scan instead, your production will be inefficient -- it is a conscious decision you made.
[quote]
It's not the cost itself that people are complaining about, it's how much faster Protoss can pump out upgrades, especially with the use of chronoboost. It may seem minimal, but you can see the difference it has made in how pro Terrans have reacted with their double engineering bay timings. They basically have to cross their fingers and hope Protoss doesn't just constantly upgrade because they won't be able to keep up. In the early game before you have all your bases saturated scanning effectly slows you down ALOT if you scan. They're the Larva Inject / Chronoboost of Terran since Terran can't produce workers as fast. Early scan hurt as much as building Units when you don't want to as a Zerg probably more. With 3-4 Orbitals and plenty of SCV's mining Mules become a luxury but in the early and midgame they are what keep the Terran eco on even footing. You are missing the point. I'm not addressing the idea of using a scan vs a mule and how it affects the game. I'm saying I'm sick of seeing people say scans cost money. Those 270 minerals don't disappear. Scans don't cost minerals. End of story. scans cost BANK its either mule or scan do the math There is no math to be done. They don't cost bank. They cost energy. Again, I'm not talking about the OPPORTUNITY COST of using a scan vs. a mule. I'm simply stating that this idea that a scan costs 270 minerals which has been stated several times in this thread to argue about creep denial isn't a true statement. It isn't that tough to understand. a scan will remove 270 additional minerals in income you would have had what does that mean to u? This is something allot Terrans are having trouble coming with terms with. During a 20 minute game using your scan instead of mules those few vital times when scan really matters, far outweighs those extra total 810 minerals you would otherwise have. really that sum of minerals doesn't matter squat compared to the total mineral amount you would had collected and the actual intel you would had gotten for that particular situation. "that particular situation" in what pro games do you see that first 50 energy used as a scan? do you watch gsl? Soon as those Ts get their orbital its scan scan scan! no they're so greedy with mules dt rushes frequently work on them Point of the post was that there exists situations where scan is better than MULES. But those aren't in the early stages of games especially in TvZ.
werd
User was temp banned for this and other terrible, terrible posts.
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I don't know how many percent of the sc community is actually active around here on TL, but I guess it's a quite large part of it, but I think it's really funny how many people claim to be at least masters... but I always thought/ often read that just 2% of the player base are masters... well maybe on NA it's another story haha! no offense ofc. lol
at times like these this forums feel a bit like redshit/r/starcraft...
back on topic: don't know why people still argue about scan/mule... ridiculous, guys, nothing else
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On May 12 2012 05:39 Creager wrote:
I don't know how many percent of the sc community is actually active around here on TL, but I guess it's a quite large part of it, but I think it's really funny how many people claim to be at least masters... but I always thought/ often read that just 2% of the player base are masters... well maybe on NA it's another story haha! no offense ofc. lol
at times like these this forums feel a bit like redshit/r/starcraft...
back on topic: don't know why people still argue about scan/mule... ridiculous, guys, nothing else
and im betting you're one of the 98% that aren't in masters
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mule gives 270 minerals
supply drop gives 120 minerals ( 100 minerals for supply depot and 20 minerals for no mining time lost scv)
scan gives 0 minerals but info.
its plain simple... saying that not dropping a mule and scan only lose your time is saying when i make your workers leave your mineral line it doesnt cost you anything.
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As a Protoss player, i can understand the observer build time as it hogs very crticial time away from collossi and immortals, the backbone of most mid game armies in each mu. Imagine how important that 10 seconds is when defending against 12 minute stephano roach style :D, However i dont think 10 seconds faster on the first observer out will give game breaking knowledge, especially when overlords are themselves getting a 25% buff (in speed rather than build time) to keep pvz and zvp Information at the same level as before.
As for the Queen buff for ground range, i imagine this might have something to do with the zvt mu more than anything, perhaps its effetiveness is having a mehtod to drive back hellion contain and again become capeable of spreading creep out to a 3rd base vs the early game terran pressures that are so difficult for zerg to handle. 2 Base timings with good hellion contain are very devastating, and seeing as how reapers almost never get use, i dont think the queen range now exceeding the reaper range will come into play.
In conclusion, I think these small tweaks shall have positive results across the board for all players once they get used to the different timings and mechanics they bring forth.
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On May 12 2012 06:07 MafiaCheese wrote:
In conclusion, I think these small tweaks shall have positive results across the board for all players once they get used to the different timings and mechanics they bring forth.
i don't find this nice tweaks...
as a terran those zergs will scout now faster what i do. Before the could hardcore drone because a possible all in or 1 base push. now the have more chance scouting it and the will drone much harder.
also now queens have range 5 so my hellions harras is far worse. So again the zerg is able to drone harder.
secondly it is harder 2 scout what the zerg is doing because the queen will catch my scv quicker.
this is also a problem for toss scouting more then terran. but now i have more chance of needing to choose for a scan instead of a mule. This will cost me minerals or time ... so it delays my push ability.
So a pretty balanced matchup zvt no got more in favour of the zergs... which with those big maps much of the time already felt that way. But my feelings are terran biased so the have no serious value.
Then the -10 second on toss obs timing. I say bye bye cloak banshee harras. Toss can go fe 3gate and the robotics and still it was out in time before my proxy cloaked banshee. now it is even quicker there. So one harras option less for terran.
So overall i think these changes are bad for terran and because i am biased i don't like them and i don't think they where needed. I can imagine the -10 seconds on obs for toss for scouting zergs. because a 2 basing toss can leave his base with his sentry army because the possibility of a lot of lings surrounding them. so obs first and then they can see what the must do.
I hope the change the way scans work... that instead of just scan there is dropped a flying pod or something that you can move and scout with. This way we can find what those zergs and toss hide for us 
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On May 12 2012 04:16 Maragor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2. Stupid comments like that need to not be said. Why shouldn't he believe the game should be balanced around himself? He paid $60 to enjoy his game. :s I personally am disgusted by how ez zerg at the lower levels is...just a-move lings/blings/ultras at a Terran army...gg. The only time lower level zerg had to micro is with infestors...and with the early game harass Terran had with helions/reapers. Now they can just a-move their queens and not even bother to keep looking to micro.
You can say the very same thing about Terran and Protoss in the lower leagues. "LOL1AMOVE EZPZ". Just when Zerg does that with ling/baneling, the banelings explode on tanks, the lings don't get their surround and die to everything else, and you got yourself a Bronze leaguer whining about balance.
Edit: Also, I've said this before...but I don't really think the queen upgrade was solely to solve a "hellion problem". The problem wasn't the hellions themselves, but the flexibility one opening allowed a race while denying the other race any reliable means of scouting what comes next. The overlord speed buff helps with this a bit, but you do notice that at the very highest level of play, it's difficult to find a Zerg that wins consistently. And I'm talking about elite Zergs like DongRaeGu. The fact of the matter is that they just have to to hope they can scout whatever's coming in time and prepare for it accordingly. Before the ovie/queen buffs, it was difficult and that's why you see these guys either win the GSL or lose in the first round -- the race can be that volatile. If you're not NesTea or DRG, you're not winning the GSL...so I guess that's Code A for you. By affording the Zerg race a little more comfortability in the early game without directly buffing the mid- and late-games, we should be seeing a more even spread overall. And I suppose more Terrans complaining about how 80% of the games aren't TvT anymore...
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On May 12 2012 05:39 Creager wrote:
I don't know how many percent of the sc community is actually active around here on TL, but I guess it's a quite large part of it, but I think it's really funny how many people claim to be at least masters... but I always thought/ often read that just 2% of the player base are masters... well maybe on NA it's another story haha! no offense ofc. lol
at times like these this forums feel a bit like redshit/r/starcraft...
back on topic: don't know why people still argue about scan/mule... ridiculous, guys, nothing else
It's due to the fact that those 2% are dedicated to the game and therefor surround themselves with like minded people. You find a lot of masters here because a bronze player isn't likely to stick around a forum where they're not qualified to really speak about anything.
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I just realise that reaper is pretty useless with queen now.
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Played a few tvzs.
I gotta say this has to be one of the worst changes they've made to the game in the last year. Almost as bad as the fungal growth buff but that was taking a spell that was no good and making it good. This was taking something that wasn't broken and making it broken.
Why do you have to keep buffing the early game of the other two races and then keep saying terran needs to win/do damage in early/mid game blizzard >< More all-ins now weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....game isnt fun like that : /
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thx alot for blizzard for making a great game.... and then slowly turning it to total horse shit, now terran is total garbage and every other race can just do what ever the fuck they want
User was warned for this post
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On May 10 2012 11:46 Vindicare605 wrote:
The queen buff is overkill.
4 would have been sufficient. 5 is just silly. It almost completely destroys early game hellion pressure as a viable strategy. The two changes pretty much give Zerg players a license to be greedy.
The outcome of all of this is simply going to mean more all ins and less pressure builds as part of standard play. That's all Blizzard is encouraging with these buffs.
To look on the bright side, this will make early game ZvZ a little less volatile which is welcome.
Agree'd wish they'd tried it at 4. I think it's party time when I roll Z from now on. Zergs already easiest, more stuff + fungal the only difficult part was not dying at the start and thats "fixed" now :D
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On May 12 2012 08:45 Satiinifi wrote:
thx alot for blizzard for making a great game.... and then slowly turning it to total horse shit, now terran is total garbage and every other race can just do what ever the fuck they want
ah yes it was a great game when terran destroyed everything?
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On May 12 2012 09:00 b0rt_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:45 Satiinifi wrote:
thx alot for blizzard for making a great game.... and then slowly turning it to total horse shit, now terran is total garbage and every other race can just do what ever the fuck they want ah yes it was a great game when terran destroyed everything?
Their way of fixing things involves making units completely useless and having everyone do exactly the same boring bullshit.
The only good thing about this patch is people got so greedy with their new shiny Queens that they tend to underestimate how strong blueflame Helions are when no roaches are around. Played tons of people that just build 4 Queens and not even a Spine and think thats fine... I mean there's no way to stop creep spread with 4-6 Helions anymore but 10-15 Helions still kill a Zerg that only builds Drones and maybe Lings.
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On May 12 2012 08:45 Satiinifi wrote:
thx alot for blizzard for making a great game.... and then slowly turning it to total horse shit, now terran is total garbage and every other race can just do what ever the fuck they want
Lol aren't you the progamer Satiini? You should have a bit more respect for the game. Terran is still a decent race, and having terrans in the position of underdog can only be a good thing as there are so many terran tournament wins and therefore less incentive to innovate their strategies.
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On May 12 2012 04:38 dUTtrOACh wrote:
Blings are horribly cost inefficient against Thors. Just because NesTea bashed NaDa in the face because of horrible position doesn't mean banelings counter thors. If you'd have said zerglings, I may have believed you.
Well actually banelings are not that bad against clumped thors. Most good terran players, clump their thors as close together as possible, that way the surface area for lings is very low. But when very clumpted together, banelings are about equal in resources to the thors they can kill. Assuming that you have a higher resource collection rate (and you should against mech), then banelings can be very effective against thors that clump in a big group. Now clearly lings are also effective, but only when they dont have lots of blue flame hellions (which they will), and/or are not clumping (which they will). Roaches and lings is best till you get to the late game. Once they get 12+ thors with blueflame hellions, turn those lings into banelings and they will be far more effective (at least untill you can get enough infesters/broodlords out which is usualy the ideal way to stop them eventually).
Also I know several thoring players that surround or lead their thor army with hold positioned scvs that really mess up the pathing for the ling/roach player. Or they use auto-repair to minimize any damage done to almost uselessness. Banelings kill both of these tactics easlly.
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On May 12 2012 09:13 dgwow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:45 Satiinifi wrote:
thx alot for blizzard for making a great game.... and then slowly turning it to total horse shit, now terran is total garbage and every other race can just do what ever the fuck they want Lol aren't you the progamer Satiini? You should have a bit more respect for the game. Terran is still a decent race, and having terrans in the position of underdog can only be a good thing as there are so many terran tournament wins and therefore less incentive to innovate their strategies.
Bullshit; if anything Terran has been innovated the most in terms of builds and timings.
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The creep spread in TvZ is pretty damn insane now and really no way to stop it. Those queens just say gtfo pretty damn fast to the hellions now, and the hive can be made so much faster while still being (relatively) safe. I just don't understand this change, especially when you have such ground breaking change and only let it stay in testing for... was it even a week?
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If Blizzard want Zerg to be completely save against aggression and have creep on large parts of the Map they'll eventually have to nerf Larva Infect at some point . It provides saturation way too fast if there's no way to stop it.
Will it happen ? Don't know not sure . I actively dislike all 3 macro mechanics ( Chronoboost , LI and Mules and want all of them nerfed maybe even removed )
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EPT
