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On May 12 2012 02:39 TeeTS wrote:
Blizzard has ruined the TvP matchup successfully for terran with the EMP nerf & upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Now they try to ruin TvZ.
While PvZ winrates tend to go out of control tournamentwhise, Blizzard brings in a buff for zerg, that has absolutely no impact on ZvP, but a damn huge on ZvT, which was so far the best balanced matchup in the game (proven by winrates all over the place)! Greatjob Blizz! Why focus on matchups where winrates go out of control? Let's just take the nearly 50-50 matchup and break it apart. Well done!
I really hope for HotS to repair the bullshit they've done in the past months. If not, maybe LoL is a good alternative -_-
I love when people cite the upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Like we are going to do a lot with the whole extra half a sentry for +2/+2. Clearly this man fears the 8 observer rush comming 80 second earlier. Snipe is the only nerf for terran where they went to far. It should have just done less damage to massive and left it as it was.
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On May 12 2012 02:26 Greenei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:23 FLuE wrote:
Please please please stop saying scans cost money.
That simply isn't true. Scans cost energy. It is a huge difference. energy is not a comparable concept though. 50 energy on a queen aren't wort nearly as much as 50 energy on a oc (if you have more then 2 queens). but it's a standard zerg/toss tactic to deny the worth of mules when the topic is scans and exaggerate it when the topic is mules.
No, the argument is pretty simple. Dropping a scan does not 'cost' you money, you just mine it slower. Dropping a mule gives you a big boost in economy at the cost of energy. The effect mules is actually huge, pros have been able to almost come back from having zero scv's because of the impact of mules in low economy games. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, mind you, but that mules are in a way a luxury more than a right. While you design your production around having mules, this is with the knowledge that if you drop a scan instead, your production will be inefficient -- it is a conscious decision you made.
On May 12 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:39 TeeTS wrote:
Blizzard has ruined the TvP matchup successfully for terran with the EMP nerf & upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Now they try to ruin TvZ.
While PvZ winrates tend to go out of control tournamentwhise, Blizzard brings in a buff for zerg, that has absolutely no impact on ZvP, but a damn huge on ZvT, which was so far the best balanced matchup in the game (proven by winrates all over the place)! Greatjob Blizz! Why focus on matchups where winrates go out of control? Let's just take the nearly 50-50 matchup and break it apart. Well done!
I really hope for HotS to repair the bullshit they've done in the past months. If not, maybe LoL is a good alternative -_- I love when people cite the upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Like we are going to do a lot with the whole extra half a sentry for +2/+2. Clearly this man fears the 8 observer rush comming 80 second earlier. Snipe is the only nerf for terran where they went to far. It should have just done less damage to massive and left it as it was.
It's not the cost itself that people are complaining about, it's how much faster Protoss can pump out upgrades, especially with the use of chronoboost. It may seem minimal, but you can see the difference it has made in how pro Terrans have reacted with their double engineering bay timings. They basically have to cross their fingers and hope Protoss doesn't just constantly upgrade because they won't be able to keep up.
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had a guy try and abuse the new OL speed and mass drop on my main today. didn't work out so well for him.
also, 1 patrolling marine can still keep an OL away from my tech structures if everything is placed properly.
observers are still gay.
so yeah. overall, i'm fine with this patch. little boring though, couldnt they have tweaked something irrelevant like thor energy just to give me an excuse to try new strats??? lol.
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once again my question, is it live on eu now?
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I find it interesting people would call a MULE a luxury...when Protoss can chrono out probes, zerg can make a crap ton of drones...and terran has to slowly eaze out SCVs. As many pros have stated along with commentators...MULEs are needed to keep Terran's economy up close to/a little bit above of the other races. Without MULEs...Terran would get shit on economy wise.
Also I find it funny people also say the Queen buff was needed to hold off Terran cheeses...really?! If you can't hold off a cheese...it isn't because your race is underpowered...it is because you need to learn to scout and how to properly defend. I could see the possibility for an increase to 4 range...but 5...simply ridiculous.
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No Zerg in GSL Round of 4!? Better buff Zerg!
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On May 12 2012 02:54 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:26 Greenei wrote:On May 12 2012 02:23 FLuE wrote:
Please please please stop saying scans cost money.
That simply isn't true. Scans cost energy. It is a huge difference. energy is not a comparable concept though. 50 energy on a queen aren't wort nearly as much as 50 energy on a oc (if you have more then 2 queens). but it's a standard zerg/toss tactic to deny the worth of mules when the topic is scans and exaggerate it when the topic is mules. No, the argument is pretty simple. Dropping a scan does not 'cost' you money, you just mine it slower. Dropping a mule gives you a big boost in economy at the cost of energy. The effect mules is actually huge, pros have been able to almost come back from having zero scv's because of the impact of mules in low economy games. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, mind you, but that mules are in a way a luxury more than a right. While you design your production around having mules, this is with the knowledge that if you drop a scan instead, your production will be inefficient -- it is a conscious decision you made.Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2012 02:39 TeeTS wrote:
Blizzard has ruined the TvP matchup successfully for terran with the EMP nerf & upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Now they try to ruin TvZ.
While PvZ winrates tend to go out of control tournamentwhise, Blizzard brings in a buff for zerg, that has absolutely no impact on ZvP, but a damn huge on ZvT, which was so far the best balanced matchup in the game (proven by winrates all over the place)! Greatjob Blizz! Why focus on matchups where winrates go out of control? Let's just take the nearly 50-50 matchup and break it apart. Well done!
I really hope for HotS to repair the bullshit they've done in the past months. If not, maybe LoL is a good alternative -_- I love when people cite the upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Like we are going to do a lot with the whole extra half a sentry for +2/+2. Clearly this man fears the 8 observer rush comming 80 second earlier. Snipe is the only nerf for terran where they went to far. It should have just done less damage to massive and left it as it was. It's not the cost itself that people are complaining about, it's how much faster Protoss can pump out upgrades, especially with the use of chronoboost. It may seem minimal, but you can see the difference it has made in how pro Terrans have reacted with their double engineering bay timings. They basically have to cross their fingers and hope Protoss doesn't just constantly upgrade because they won't be able to keep up.
In the early game before you have all your bases saturated scanning effectly slows you down ALOT if you scan. They're the Larva Inject / Chronoboost of Terran since Terran can't produce workers as fast. Early scan hurt as much as building Units when you don't want to as a Zerg probably more. With 3-4 Orbitals and plenty of SCV's mining Mules become a luxury but in the early and midgame they are what keep the Terran eco on even footing.
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On May 12 2012 03:10 MysteryTerran wrote:
No Zerg in GSL Round of 4!? Better buff Zerg!
There were also no Zergs in the Ro8. And two in the Ro16.
It's one of the reasons Terran whine about lategame TvP looks so ridiculous. TvP winrates are fine both on ladder and TLPD, the upcoming GSL finals is a TvP, and yet we get a 70+ page thread of Terran players complaining, while Zergs slowly disappear from Code S.
I guess it goes further to demonstrate how they don't give a shit about actual balance, and just want more sweet ladder points.
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On May 12 2012 03:16 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 02:54 mrjpark wrote:On May 12 2012 02:26 Greenei wrote:On May 12 2012 02:23 FLuE wrote:
Please please please stop saying scans cost money.
That simply isn't true. Scans cost energy. It is a huge difference. energy is not a comparable concept though. 50 energy on a queen aren't wort nearly as much as 50 energy on a oc (if you have more then 2 queens). but it's a standard zerg/toss tactic to deny the worth of mules when the topic is scans and exaggerate it when the topic is mules. No, the argument is pretty simple. Dropping a scan does not 'cost' you money, you just mine it slower. Dropping a mule gives you a big boost in economy at the cost of energy. The effect mules is actually huge, pros have been able to almost come back from having zero scv's because of the impact of mules in low economy games. I'm not saying they're imbalanced, mind you, but that mules are in a way a luxury more than a right. While you design your production around having mules, this is with the knowledge that if you drop a scan instead, your production will be inefficient -- it is a conscious decision you made.On May 12 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:On May 12 2012 02:39 TeeTS wrote:
Blizzard has ruined the TvP matchup successfully for terran with the EMP nerf & upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Now they try to ruin TvZ.
While PvZ winrates tend to go out of control tournamentwhise, Blizzard brings in a buff for zerg, that has absolutely no impact on ZvP, but a damn huge on ZvT, which was so far the best balanced matchup in the game (proven by winrates all over the place)! Greatjob Blizz! Why focus on matchups where winrates go out of control? Let's just take the nearly 50-50 matchup and break it apart. Well done!
I really hope for HotS to repair the bullshit they've done in the past months. If not, maybe LoL is a good alternative -_- I love when people cite the upgrade cost reduction for protoss. Like we are going to do a lot with the whole extra half a sentry for +2/+2. Clearly this man fears the 8 observer rush comming 80 second earlier. Snipe is the only nerf for terran where they went to far. It should have just done less damage to massive and left it as it was. It's not the cost itself that people are complaining about, it's how much faster Protoss can pump out upgrades, especially with the use of chronoboost. It may seem minimal, but you can see the difference it has made in how pro Terrans have reacted with their double engineering bay timings. They basically have to cross their fingers and hope Protoss doesn't just constantly upgrade because they won't be able to keep up. In the early game before you have all your bases saturated scanning effectly slows you down ALOT if you scan. They're the Larva Inject / Chronoboost of Terran since Terran can't produce workers as fast. Early scan hurt as much as building Units when you don't want to as a Zerg probably more. With 3-4 Orbitals and plenty of SCV's mining Mules become a luxury but in the early and midgame they are what keep the Terran eco on even footing.
You are missing the point. I'm not addressing the idea of using a scan vs a mule and how it affects the game. I'm saying I'm sick of seeing people say scans cost money. Those 270 minerals don't disappear. Scans don't cost minerals. End of story.
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On May 12 2012 03:41 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:10 MysteryTerran wrote:
No Zerg in GSL Round of 4!? Better buff Zerg! There were also no Zergs in the Ro8. And two in the Ro16. It's one of the reasons Terran whine about lategame TvP looks so ridiculous. TvP winrates are fine both on ladder and TLPD, the upcoming GSL finals is a TvP, and yet we get a 70+ page thread of Terran players complaining, while Zergs slowly disappear from Code S. I guess it goes further to demonstrate how they don't give a shit about actual balance, and just want more sweet ladder points.
You realize raw winrate doesn't tell you much about balance? It tells you on average who wins what. It doesn't show how someone wins, it doesn't factor in when in the game someone wins, it doesn't factor on which individual wins - it just gives you a number that is pretty useless standing alone.
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And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying
Now everybody lister CLEARELY:
I am not M V P
I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship...
I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO".
And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3
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This change does nothing, if you have 4 queens and no roaches I can still BBQ an absolute shit ton of drones with a BF 2 base timing attack.
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On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3
You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2012 03:49 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 03:41 Toadvine wrote:On May 12 2012 03:10 MysteryTerran wrote:
No Zerg in GSL Round of 4!? Better buff Zerg! There were also no Zergs in the Ro8. And two in the Ro16. It's one of the reasons Terran whine about lategame TvP looks so ridiculous. TvP winrates are fine both on ladder and TLPD, the upcoming GSL finals is a TvP, and yet we get a 70+ page thread of Terran players complaining, while Zergs slowly disappear from Code S. I guess it goes further to demonstrate how they don't give a shit about actual balance, and just want more sweet ladder points. You realize raw winrate doesn't tell you much about balance? It tells you on average who wins what. It doesn't show how someone wins, it doesn't factor in when in the game someone wins, it doesn't factor on which individual wins - it just gives you a number that is pretty useless standing alone.
To the contrary, it does say something about balance, with a large enough player pool. What it doesn't say anything about, is how fun, entertaining and skill-intensive the matchup is. I think TvP is pretty awful personally, but imbalanced it is not, or at least I see no major indication of such a state.
Or, at the very least, winrates say more about balance than angry posts on TL do.
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On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2.
Stupid comments like that need to not be said. Why shouldn't he believe the game should be balanced around himself? He paid $60 to enjoy his game. :s I personally am disgusted by how ez zerg at the lower levels is...just a-move lings/blings/ultras at a Terran army...gg. The only time lower level zerg had to micro is with infestors...and with the early game harass Terran had with helions/reapers. Now they can just a-move their queens and not even bother to keep looking to micro.
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On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2.
You're very smart man. I've (OBVIOUSELY) ment low league players (not ME). "We" or mbye our fun will be hurt....
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Vatican City State582 Posts
Very interesting to see the reasoning behind obs build time decrease:
"Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level.
At this time, we’re keeping a very close eye on this, and preparing to make any necessary adjustments."
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308170/Call_to_Action_Balance_Testing-5_4_2012#blog
I guess Blizz hasn't been watching GSL at all. 5/8 Round of 8 contenders are Protoss. 3/4 Semifinalists are Protoss.
I suppose GSL is not at the very top of the pro-level................
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On May 12 2012 04:16 Maragor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2. Stupid comments like that need to not be said. Why shouldn't he believe the game should be balanced around himself? He paid $60 to enjoy his game. :s I personally am disgusted by how ez zerg at the lower levels is...just a-move lings/blings/ultras at a Terran army...gg. The only time lower level zerg had to micro is with infestors...and with the early game harass Terran had with helions/reapers. Now they can just a-move their queens and not even bother to keep looking to micro.
I think low level terran need to stop trying to play like Marine king, anyway. They should just mass thors like foreign terrans.
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On May 12 2012 04:22 dacimvrl wrote:Very interesting to see the reasoning behind obs build time decrease: "Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level. At this time, we’re keeping a very close eye on this, and preparing to make any necessary adjustments." Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5308170/Call_to_Action_Balance_Testing-5_4_2012#blogI guess Blizz hasn't been watching GSL at all. 5/8 Round of 8 contenders are Protoss. 3/4 Semifinalists are Protoss. I guess they are not at the very top of the pro-level................
Well of course, they have to come up with a reason for doing a change that nobody even thought was necessary...sadly, they didn't check the GSL before making that reasoning.
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On May 12 2012 04:16 Maragor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:03 ZAiNs wrote:On May 12 2012 04:01 Doganaws wrote:And when a terran wins the next MLG they'll still be crying Now everybody lister CLEARELY: I am not M V P I don't care about who wins GSL, MLG, NASL, IGN PRO LEAGUE, Wooden league middleland championship... I care about me... and personally (this is a forum right?) i'll not be as good as before against Z. All of my vZ strats are a little hurt. And as a plat player (who dosn't want to play 6 hours a day because of work and wife) i'll not be able to react to this "LIKE A PRO". And tomorrow i'll post my replays... and in 4 days i'll start to play diablo 3 You are Platinum and think the game should be balanced around you? When Diablo III comes out don't bother coming back to SC2. Stupid comments like that need to not be said. Why shouldn't he believe the game should be balanced around himself? He paid $60 to enjoy his game. :s I personally am disgusted by how ez zerg at the lower levels is...just a-move lings/blings/ultras at a Terran army...gg. The only time lower level zerg had to micro is with infestors...and with the early game harass Terran had with helions/reapers. Now they can just a-move their queens and not even bother to keep looking to micro.
Are you trying to suggest that blizzard used coercion in order to force people to buy this game? Everyone here bought the game out of there own free will. People should of known from the start that the game would more likely be balanced towards upper league players. Because zerg is supposedly "easy" at low league levels should we nerf the shit of them. I say no. If you don't like that and you want the world to revolve around you then grow up sell your game on ebay and go play tetris.
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EPT
