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On May 11 2012 18:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 17:57 locant wrote:
i cant understand why protoss and zerg players purely come to this thread to bash on terran players. We have been nerfed in the last 3 patches while the other races get stronger yet there are no signs of this trend stopping...
Personally i dont really care for the changes as im not a fan of hellions its just the attitude of Z and P players which gets me I would have rather Zerg was OP from the start and then slowly being nerfed for 2 years then being UP and slowly being made stronger (or other races nerfed). Then I would have been in your situation. You had your 2 years of OP, now L2P.
Technically Z was OP first...if you count the state of Roaches in the beta haha, I sure do miss those days ><
Anyway, I look forward to these changes...it really gives me motivation to start playing again. ^^ Anyone got an hour count until this thing goes live?
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On May 11 2012 18:26 kosai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 18:20 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2012 17:57 locant wrote:
i cant understand why protoss and zerg players purely come to this thread to bash on terran players. We have been nerfed in the last 3 patches while the other races get stronger yet there are no signs of this trend stopping...
Personally i dont really care for the changes as im not a fan of hellions its just the attitude of Z and P players which gets me I would have rather Zerg was OP from the start and then slowly being nerfed for 2 years then being UP and slowly being made stronger (or other races nerfed). Then I would have been in your situation. You had your 2 years of OP, now L2P. Terran wasn't OP for quite a while now. Win ratios show that. Hell, zergs even have higher winrate in TvZ. Despite that, we're being nerfed hard. How is that fair?
That guy you're responding to doesn't want balance. He wants revenge. That's his view on fairness.
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On May 11 2012 18:19 Gigaschatten wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 17:41 Ktk wrote:On May 11 2012 17:31 Gigaschatten wrote:
Very entertaining thread. Ultra-Slow Overlords are now slow and Queens can have a longer attack-range whilst still doing minimal damage and more or less serving as Meat-Shields.
I even can not understand the terrans. place 4 Hellions outside the creep. Do a scan, dive in and kill the tumors. I guarantee you that you won't loose a Hellion. It will be only damaged. Get back, repair, start again.
Is that too much? Easy going. The queen got a bit stronger and can defend against all kind of early cheeses a tiny bit better (especially vs bunkers - yes) but thats fine. Stop whining and enjoy the game. So we're losing 300 minerals every 30 seconds to kill creep (mineral cost: 600 minerals)? Scanning repeatedly is not sustainable;; Going back to repair? Also unfeasible on several maps just because of sheer travel distance. By the time the hellions come back on daybreak the Zerg would be at least a tumor advanced... And there's nothing you could've done about it with the units at hand without allining? The overlord buff: Messed around with zerg, no difficulties in scouting everything in the base. It sometimes cost me the overlord but boy was it worth it! Now all the races can scout everything: obs (25/75), overlord (100/supply), scan (300/OC) The patch just drives further the concept that Blizzard is trying to get everyone to realize, be really active early-game as Terran. .. IMO, easier said than done, since the effort your opponent has to put in is proportional to how much you demand of them right? And I think 2rax is still viable but you're gonna see this a lot less often now? Dude... i am playing Random on Master level. These patch changes are no big deal. I play round about 33% Terran too. The only things which are really nerfed a little bit (a tiny little bit) are - bunker rushes, - creep denial. You can still do bunker rushes and also deny creep.... takes more micro. Another thing while people are whining: It's human nature. We all knew that Terrans were OP in the beginning (at least all randoms knew for sure) but people don't think logically in these cases. If you got something you want to preserve it. If you take something away from them (like in this case) or give something to someone else, then people will feel a loss. Take 10€ away from someones monthly income when e.g. they earn 10.000€ they will cry and shout like hell. Give them an increase of 10€ they will moan about how little it is but not further bother. Summary: - Terrans didnt get a nerf (bunker build time still the same  ) - Zergs got a tiny little buff - neglectable. Blizzard, thank you for continuing to tweak races. Looking forward to Hots and all the good stuff delivered there (clan support, replay viewing, etc..) My 5 Cents.
Thank god for your post. I did not know how to reply without flaming the QQers.
If you park hellions just out of creep range and have the decency to check for creep tumors being planted every now and then (because you could passively deny creep pre-patch) you should be able to dive and kill it. And cancelling a tumor does reset it's cd. Or if it was layed by the queen it does not bring the energy back. After a while your hellions will be hurt and you will be forced to abort but it will definately have earned you a lot of time of creep not being spread.
So, stop whining and realise that being able to ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY deny creep, while being on 2base vs 2base (but you being able to safely make a 3rd CC inbase, aka having a frekishly stronger economy) only resulted in top zergs doing 3 roach/bane busts in every best of 5 series.
Just go look at DRG/Stephano playing vs terran. Zerg could not get out of his base unless he got roaches. If he got roaches vs an equally skilled terran, then he was behind in econ and his army was obliterated by marine marauder, not marine tank. Therefore he started going roach/bane busts all around the place.
Do the world a favor and try to understand why it is unacceptable to be able to deny 95% scouting (slow overlords, lawl), 100% creep spread, 100% the third base with only 4 hellions. And if the zerg tries to respond with roaches, kill them by marine/marauder while the 3rd is being build and you have had more income from the time your natural was planted down.
After the patch, if you commit to 6-8 hellions you should be able to deny creep pretty much the same way like before patch. You might also kill a queen then proceed to dive into the natural for drone annihilation. But don't expect 400 minerals to let you take a huge advantage anymore. If you don't want creep anymore, invest in more hellions. If you make only 4 then creep will slowly advance but you can always push it back with a few MM/hellion poke and a scan.
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fuck yeah! I'm gonna go Queen-Colossus in 2v2 now likabaws :3
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On May 11 2012 18:20 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 17:57 locant wrote:
i cant understand why protoss and zerg players purely come to this thread to bash on terran players. We have been nerfed in the last 3 patches while the other races get stronger yet there are no signs of this trend stopping...
Personally i dont really care for the changes as im not a fan of hellions its just the attitude of Z and P players which gets me I would have rather Zerg was OP from the start and then slowly being nerfed for 2 years then being UP and slowly being made stronger (or other races nerfed). Then I would have been in your situation. You had your 2 years of OP, now L2P.
LOL
I love this comment.
You tell em!
:D
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This is totally going to change all we know about Ultralisk drop harassment.
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On May 11 2012 17:06 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 16:40 covetousrat wrote:
So is Queens ground attack now range or melee? Does Guardian Shield affects it? its range 5, if GS didnt effect it then it would be a bug.
Queen - Talon damage has always been ranged damage and has always been reduced by Guardian Shield.
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On May 11 2012 18:44 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 18:19 Gigaschatten wrote:On May 11 2012 17:41 Ktk wrote:On May 11 2012 17:31 Gigaschatten wrote:
Very entertaining thread. Ultra-Slow Overlords are now slow and Queens can have a longer attack-range whilst still doing minimal damage and more or less serving as Meat-Shields.
I even can not understand the terrans. place 4 Hellions outside the creep. Do a scan, dive in and kill the tumors. I guarantee you that you won't loose a Hellion. It will be only damaged. Get back, repair, start again.
Is that too much? Easy going. The queen got a bit stronger and can defend against all kind of early cheeses a tiny bit better (especially vs bunkers - yes) but thats fine. Stop whining and enjoy the game. So we're losing 300 minerals every 30 seconds to kill creep (mineral cost: 600 minerals)? Scanning repeatedly is not sustainable;; Going back to repair? Also unfeasible on several maps just because of sheer travel distance. By the time the hellions come back on daybreak the Zerg would be at least a tumor advanced... And there's nothing you could've done about it with the units at hand without allining? The overlord buff: Messed around with zerg, no difficulties in scouting everything in the base. It sometimes cost me the overlord but boy was it worth it! Now all the races can scout everything: obs (25/75), overlord (100/supply), scan (300/OC) The patch just drives further the concept that Blizzard is trying to get everyone to realize, be really active early-game as Terran. .. IMO, easier said than done, since the effort your opponent has to put in is proportional to how much you demand of them right? And I think 2rax is still viable but you're gonna see this a lot less often now? Dude... i am playing Random on Master level. These patch changes are no big deal. I play round about 33% Terran too. The only things which are really nerfed a little bit (a tiny little bit) are - bunker rushes, - creep denial. You can still do bunker rushes and also deny creep.... takes more micro. Another thing while people are whining: It's human nature. We all knew that Terrans were OP in the beginning (at least all randoms knew for sure) but people don't think logically in these cases. If you got something you want to preserve it. If you take something away from them (like in this case) or give something to someone else, then people will feel a loss. Take 10€ away from someones monthly income when e.g. they earn 10.000€ they will cry and shout like hell. Give them an increase of 10€ they will moan about how little it is but not further bother. Summary: - Terrans didnt get a nerf (bunker build time still the same ) - Zergs got a tiny little buff - neglectable. Blizzard, thank you for continuing to tweak races. Looking forward to Hots and all the good stuff delivered there (clan support, replay viewing, etc..) My 5 Cents. Thank god for your post. I did not know how to reply without flaming the QQers. Instead I will whine.
God forbid Zerg has to make anything other than a drone or a Zergling in order to protect his creep! Buff them!
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User was warned for this post
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On May 11 2012 18:26 kosai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 18:20 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2012 17:57 locant wrote:
i cant understand why protoss and zerg players purely come to this thread to bash on terran players. We have been nerfed in the last 3 patches while the other races get stronger yet there are no signs of this trend stopping...
Personally i dont really care for the changes as im not a fan of hellions its just the attitude of Z and P players which gets me I would have rather Zerg was OP from the start and then slowly being nerfed for 2 years then being UP and slowly being made stronger (or other races nerfed). Then I would have been in your situation. You had your 2 years of OP, now L2P. Terran wasn't OP for quite a while now. Win ratios show that. Hell, zergs even have higher winrate in TvZ. Despite that, we're being nerfed hard. How is that fair?
Nerfed hard? What are you smoking? And top Pros show that Terran still owns Zergs!
Or maybe you missed the part of Blizzard post that said they are changing this because of Pro feedback and not because of overall ladder win rates.
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Maybe this change is needed for top level play, but as a Random High Master I think Terran is too hard to play in comparison to Protoss or Zerg. The amount of micro, multitasking and macro needed at this ladder level is at least 25% more than I need with any other race. Also interesting strategies get shut down by this changes and no intelligent/demanding new strategies are created on the other side for Protoss or Zerg.
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On May 11 2012 19:45 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 18:44 Notfragile wrote:On May 11 2012 18:19 Gigaschatten wrote:On May 11 2012 17:41 Ktk wrote:On May 11 2012 17:31 Gigaschatten wrote:
Very entertaining thread. Ultra-Slow Overlords are now slow and Queens can have a longer attack-range whilst still doing minimal damage and more or less serving as Meat-Shields.
I even can not understand the terrans. place 4 Hellions outside the creep. Do a scan, dive in and kill the tumors. I guarantee you that you won't loose a Hellion. It will be only damaged. Get back, repair, start again.
Is that too much? Easy going. The queen got a bit stronger and can defend against all kind of early cheeses a tiny bit better (especially vs bunkers - yes) but thats fine. Stop whining and enjoy the game. So we're losing 300 minerals every 30 seconds to kill creep (mineral cost: 600 minerals)? Scanning repeatedly is not sustainable;; Going back to repair? Also unfeasible on several maps just because of sheer travel distance. By the time the hellions come back on daybreak the Zerg would be at least a tumor advanced... And there's nothing you could've done about it with the units at hand without allining? The overlord buff: Messed around with zerg, no difficulties in scouting everything in the base. It sometimes cost me the overlord but boy was it worth it! Now all the races can scout everything: obs (25/75), overlord (100/supply), scan (300/OC) The patch just drives further the concept that Blizzard is trying to get everyone to realize, be really active early-game as Terran. .. IMO, easier said than done, since the effort your opponent has to put in is proportional to how much you demand of them right? And I think 2rax is still viable but you're gonna see this a lot less often now? Dude... i am playing Random on Master level. These patch changes are no big deal. I play round about 33% Terran too. The only things which are really nerfed a little bit (a tiny little bit) are - bunker rushes, - creep denial. You can still do bunker rushes and also deny creep.... takes more micro. Another thing while people are whining: It's human nature. We all knew that Terrans were OP in the beginning (at least all randoms knew for sure) but people don't think logically in these cases. If you got something you want to preserve it. If you take something away from them (like in this case) or give something to someone else, then people will feel a loss. Take 10€ away from someones monthly income when e.g. they earn 10.000€ they will cry and shout like hell. Give them an increase of 10€ they will moan about how little it is but not further bother. Summary: - Terrans didnt get a nerf (bunker build time still the same ) - Zergs got a tiny little buff - neglectable. Blizzard, thank you for continuing to tweak races. Looking forward to Hots and all the good stuff delivered there (clan support, replay viewing, etc..) My 5 Cents. Thank god for your post. I did not know how to reply without flaming the QQers. Instead I will whine. God forbid Zerg has to make anything other than a drone or a Zergling in order to protect his creep! Buff them!
What league are you playing in? Because at anything below high platinum you cannot understand my point and spending time explaining it to you would prove to be nothing but a waste.
If you are high plat and above, you should be able to see my point about terran being able to take 2base (perhaps with 3CC) and deny scouting/3rd/creep for zerg, for the really low investment of 400 minerals. Zerg has to spend 100 for a spine, 150 for an extra queen and that is only to prevent him from dying. To break out of the contain the zerg player must make a roach warren (150) then make 4-5 roaches (300/100). That or wait for lair tech.
In the meantime terran has a greater economy (2base vs 2base w/ mules) and can expand favourably or outright kill the opponent. MKP crushes zerg face because he understands that principle of never letting the zerg alive out of the midgame. You have a better economy and a marine/marauder/medivac mix (with some tanks here and there) can kill any compositiont a zerg with lowed econ can produce out of 2 bases).
Let me be clear:
The changes were not implemented for us scrubs. I can consistently break the hellion contain with lings, at high diamond, because even there player's multitasking sucks hard.
The change was implemented becaue at the highest levels of play (top code S, MKP crushing zergs at early/midgame consistently) the game is played with a pre-set set of moves.
A good (read: top code S) macro player can and will win all the time vs a good zerg, because of the huge advantage the unbreakable (without roach or lair) 4 hellion contain provides.
(And yes... )
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On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
If you are high plat and above, you should be able to see my point about terran being able to take 2base (perhaps with 3CC) and deny scouting/3rd/creep for zerg, for the really low investment of 400 minerals. Zerg has to spend 100 for a spine, 150 for an extra queen and that is only to prevent him from dying. To break out of the contain the zerg player must make a roach warren (150) then make 4-5 roaches (300/100). That or wait for lair tech.
In the meantime terran has a greater economy (2base vs 2base w/ mules) and can expand favourably or outright kill the opponent. MKP crushes zerg face because he understands that principle of never letting the zerg alive out of the midgame. You have a better economy and a marine/marauder/medivac mix (with some tanks here and there) can kill any compositiont a zerg with lowed econ can produce out of 2 bases).
Let me explain how it really works.
Zerg can take an unbelievable greedy third if he goes for roaches. Then after 3-5 roaches, he can drone to 60+ drones in a few minutes. What can terran do with these hellions? Nothing, only run away. Then, when the terran is ready to push, Z has such an awesome economy, that he can crush the terran army, then double expand again, and defend untill broodlord + infestor tech is out (lol @ that composition still not nerfed). That is how alot of TvZ games go. Check polt vs nerchio for an example.
On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
A good (read: top code S) macro player can and will win all the time vs a good zerg, because of the huge advantage the unbreakable (without roach or lair) 4 hellion contain provides.
It takes the total amount of 2 roaches and a queen to break the contain.
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On May 11 2012 20:30 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
If you are high plat and above, you should be able to see my point about terran being able to take 2base (perhaps with 3CC) and deny scouting/3rd/creep for zerg, for the really low investment of 400 minerals. Zerg has to spend 100 for a spine, 150 for an extra queen and that is only to prevent him from dying. To break out of the contain the zerg player must make a roach warren (150) then make 4-5 roaches (300/100). That or wait for lair tech.
In the meantime terran has a greater economy (2base vs 2base w/ mules) and can expand favourably or outright kill the opponent. MKP crushes zerg face because he understands that principle of never letting the zerg alive out of the midgame. You have a better economy and a marine/marauder/medivac mix (with some tanks here and there) can kill any compositiont a zerg with lowed econ can produce out of 2 bases). Let me explain how it really works. Zerg can take an unbelievable greedy third if he goes for roaches. Then after 3-5 roaches, he can drone to 60+ drones in a few minutes. What can terran do with these hellions? Nothing, only run away. Then, when the terran is ready to push, Z has such an awesome economy, that he can crush the terran army, then double expand again, and defend untill broodlord + infestor tech is out (lol @ that composition still not nerfed). That is how alot of TvZ games go. Check polt vs nerchio for an example. Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
A good (read: top code S) macro player can and will win all the time vs a good zerg, because of the huge advantage the unbreakable (without roach or lair) 4 hellion contain provides.
It takes the total amount of 2 roaches and a queen to break the contain.
Don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about.
You aren't going to take a greedy 3rd after you make 5 roaches. That in and of itself prevents anything you do from being greedy, the investment of those roaches are worthless and a bigger investment than the few helions on the map. Behind those 4 helions terran can be taking their 3rd, or going for any number of things that render your roach tech worthless.
And can I just add, what is wrong with making a raven? It isn't like you have to invest in additional tech. Switch 2 buildings fast, raven, switch back. Protoss players almost have to go robo tech and get an OBS, Zerg have to sac OL's or make overseers. Sometimes we blinding invest in spores because we have no idea what is coming. Terran can't make 1 raven and go out and clear creep with it? I don't understand what is wrong with a raven. The thing is useful.
Honestly, what scares me about this patch is Terran players will finally start mixing ravens into their armies, and all the sudden they'll realize how good they are just like when they started mixing ghosts in their armies. Terran have so many units and options they don't even realize how good some of what they have is because they never have to use it to win.
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i dont these changes are necessary. firstly they already buffed the observer cost so it was cheaper, now it is also made faster. The queen's melee attack range is now ridiculous, I reckon 4 range would have been more reasonable.
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On May 11 2012 20:45 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 20:30 Snowbear wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
If you are high plat and above, you should be able to see my point about terran being able to take 2base (perhaps with 3CC) and deny scouting/3rd/creep for zerg, for the really low investment of 400 minerals. Zerg has to spend 100 for a spine, 150 for an extra queen and that is only to prevent him from dying. To break out of the contain the zerg player must make a roach warren (150) then make 4-5 roaches (300/100). That or wait for lair tech.
In the meantime terran has a greater economy (2base vs 2base w/ mules) and can expand favourably or outright kill the opponent. MKP crushes zerg face because he understands that principle of never letting the zerg alive out of the midgame. You have a better economy and a marine/marauder/medivac mix (with some tanks here and there) can kill any compositiont a zerg with lowed econ can produce out of 2 bases). Let me explain how it really works. Zerg can take an unbelievable greedy third if he goes for roaches. Then after 3-5 roaches, he can drone to 60+ drones in a few minutes. What can terran do with these hellions? Nothing, only run away. Then, when the terran is ready to push, Z has such an awesome economy, that he can crush the terran army, then double expand again, and defend untill broodlord + infestor tech is out (lol @ that composition still not nerfed). That is how alot of TvZ games go. Check polt vs nerchio for an example. On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
A good (read: top code S) macro player can and will win all the time vs a good zerg, because of the huge advantage the unbreakable (without roach or lair) 4 hellion contain provides.
It takes the total amount of 2 roaches and a queen to break the contain. Don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about. You aren't going to take a greedy 3rd after you make 5 roaches. That in and of itself prevents anything you do from being greedy, the investment of those roaches are worthless and a bigger investment than the few helions on the map. Behind those 4 helions terran can be taking their 3rd, or going for any number of things that render your roach tech worthless. And can I just add, what is wrong with making a raven? It isn't like you have to invest in additional tech. Switch 2 buildings fast, raven, switch back. Protoss players almost have to go robo tech and get an OBS, Zerg have to sac OL's or make overseers. Sometimes we blinding invest in spores because we have no idea what is coming. Terran can't make 1 raven and go out and clear creep with it? I don't understand what is wrong with a raven. The thing is useful. Honestly, what scares me about this patch is Terran players will finally start mixing ravens into their armies, and all the sudden they'll realize how good they are just like when they started mixing ghosts in their armies. Terran have so many units and options they don't even realize how good some of what they have is because they never have to use it to win.
I'm not too sure about that man, I've seen 4-5 roaches before, they tear down max supplies Terran armies like That *Snaps his fingers*
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On May 11 2012 18:26 kosai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 18:20 -Archangel- wrote:On May 11 2012 17:57 locant wrote:
i cant understand why protoss and zerg players purely come to this thread to bash on terran players. We have been nerfed in the last 3 patches while the other races get stronger yet there are no signs of this trend stopping...
Personally i dont really care for the changes as im not a fan of hellions its just the attitude of Z and P players which gets me I would have rather Zerg was OP from the start and then slowly being nerfed for 2 years then being UP and slowly being made stronger (or other races nerfed). Then I would have been in your situation. You had your 2 years of OP, now L2P. Terran wasn't OP for quite a while now. Win ratios show that. Hell, zergs even have higher winrate in TvZ. Despite that, we're being nerfed hard. How is that fair?
Maybe they are balancing for top level players like GSL where zerg has an abysmal win rate.
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On May 11 2012 20:45 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 20:30 Snowbear wrote:On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
If you are high plat and above, you should be able to see my point about terran being able to take 2base (perhaps with 3CC) and deny scouting/3rd/creep for zerg, for the really low investment of 400 minerals. Zerg has to spend 100 for a spine, 150 for an extra queen and that is only to prevent him from dying. To break out of the contain the zerg player must make a roach warren (150) then make 4-5 roaches (300/100). That or wait for lair tech.
In the meantime terran has a greater economy (2base vs 2base w/ mules) and can expand favourably or outright kill the opponent. MKP crushes zerg face because he understands that principle of never letting the zerg alive out of the midgame. You have a better economy and a marine/marauder/medivac mix (with some tanks here and there) can kill any compositiont a zerg with lowed econ can produce out of 2 bases). Let me explain how it really works. Zerg can take an unbelievable greedy third if he goes for roaches. Then after 3-5 roaches, he can drone to 60+ drones in a few minutes. What can terran do with these hellions? Nothing, only run away. Then, when the terran is ready to push, Z has such an awesome economy, that he can crush the terran army, then double expand again, and defend untill broodlord + infestor tech is out (lol @ that composition still not nerfed). That is how alot of TvZ games go. Check polt vs nerchio for an example. On May 11 2012 20:18 Notfragile wrote:
A good (read: top code S) macro player can and will win all the time vs a good zerg, because of the huge advantage the unbreakable (without roach or lair) 4 hellion contain provides.
It takes the total amount of 2 roaches and a queen to break the contain. Don't post if you have no idea what you are talking about. You aren't going to take a greedy 3rd after you make 5 roaches. That in and of itself prevents anything you do from being greedy, the investment of those roaches are worthless and a bigger investment than the few helions on the map. Behind those 4 helions terran can be taking their 3rd, or going for any number of things that render your roach tech worthless. And can I just add, what is wrong with making a raven? It isn't like you have to invest in additional tech. Switch 2 buildings fast, raven, switch back. Protoss players almost have to go robo tech and get an OBS, Zerg have to sac OL's or make overseers. Sometimes we blinding invest in spores because we have no idea what is coming. Terran can't make 1 raven and go out and clear creep with it? I don't understand what is wrong with a raven. The thing is useful. Honestly, what scares me about this patch is Terran players will finally start mixing ravens into their armies, and all the sudden they'll realize how good they are just like when they started mixing ghosts in their armies. Terran have so many units and options they don't even realize how good some of what they have is because they never have to use it to win.
I actually know really well what I am talking about. My grandmaster zerg friend makes a 5:00 third (before hellions are out), and then follows up with some roaches. Then he can drone like a maniac.The investment in those roaches is NOT worthless, and the fact that you say that it's a worthless investment, confirms my suspicion that alot of zergs don't understand how good some early roaches are. Let me tell you why they are not worthless:
1) you can start creep spreading again, since you can drive the hellions back.
2) you can even take mapcontrol again.
3) you can drone like a maniac, since those hellions won't damage you thx to the roaches.
In my opinion roach bling armies are EXTREMELY strong. Roaches tank a huge amount of tank fire, and splitting against them is so cost-inefficient (but you have to, thx to the banelings). Try to find 1 terran that doesn't agree with this.
About the raven: you know that it costs 200 gas right? Imagine I go for a 3 orbitral build + double grades.
- double +1 = 200 gas.
- I need siegetech + tanks to hold a roach bling bust = 125 for 1 tank, 100 for siegetech.
- I need a starport + reactor on it
- I need medivacs for my push around 13:30 (= 100 gas for 1 tank)
- I need more tanks.
- I need stim (100)
- I need combatshield (100)
- I need reactors (50 each)
- I need armory (150)
- I need 2x +2 attack = 175 x 2
- I need tank upgrades = 100 for +1, 175 for +2
- I need more factories
That's ALOT of gas. I know zergs have to spend alot of gas too, but I am just trying to show why a raven midgame is not possible, unless I cut grades or medivacs, OR delay my push...
I will start to bank up gas after I got 4 medivacs. At around 15:00 I can finally start to make my raven. At that time I should've damaged the zerg already, or I will just die. I already pushed and scanned. If I did the right amount of damage (and I am ahead), then I will kill the zerg, even without a raven. When we are EVEN or I am BEHIND, then a raven won't help me win. I will die to broodlord infestor 100%.
And yes, ravens are good vs CLUMPED UP broodlords. What they suck against are SPREADED broodlords and just ultralisks in general.
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Question about the new queen attack: Now that it's one attack, do ranged upgrades give +2 damage or +1?
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i like the better range for queens. very good decision. makes them better against these ridicolous fast and splash damage dealing no gas costing helions in very early game.
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EPT
