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I agree with the overlord change, although I'm not sure if the 25% would make much of a difference, but does that leave Pneumatised Carapace as a 4× buff to make their speed with the upgrade 2.344 or do they stay at 1.875 with speed?
(Yes, I haven't tested it yet but I'm asking people who have for their opinions).
I also strongly agree with the wording of all of these desires:
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
- We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
- We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
and I don't think that giving queens 25 more energy to start with will be the way to do it, Blizzard. :D
Hellions can completely negate the extra energy worth of creep anyway, if you spend it before clearing the hellions, rather than saving it for when you know they are safe (because you were hoping to get away with spreading some sooner and pushing them out).
Considering the strength of 2 rax pressure with bunkers and the fact that spine crawlers are are in no way better at fighting than cannons, which are much more multi-purpose and will always beat spines anyway (providing the spine didn't get to hit first, likely if any uprooted movement was necessary), I really would like to see Spine Crawlers dealing 40 vs structures, which would help to hold off the first, at least. The kinds of situations where a zerg could suddenly be much worse off from bunker wall-off/wall-ins (with the SCV) could be dampened by spines actually being good enough so that they can afford to take some free hits and still finish off the bunker more easily.
In addition, for all races in defence, I think it would be ideal if the range indicator (like that of Siege Tanks) was shown for Photon Cannons, Spine Crawlers, Spore Crawlers and Missile Turrets when selected by their owner, or at least the zerg ones (because the can uproot and it would be nice to see exactly how far you will want to move it BEFORE actually uprooting it, so that no time is lost by looking closely at a moving range indicator as you try to see where you'll need to plant it and marines start taking extra shots at it etc). It could be an option in the menu, at least, for more of these indicators to be shown. Having said that, I'm pretty sure there's at least one menu check-box that I don't actually know the function of. :|
¹ You can make arguments like uprooting vs ability to build aggressively wherever there's a pylon, transfusion vs shield regeneration, 125 minerals including the drone but also losing the income of one worker vs 150 minerals, anti air vs...ummm), but I'd trade crawlers for cannons anyday. :Þ
EDIT: Oh and on the topic of creep spread, I really think the right way to go about it is just to increase (probably double) the base rate of creep generation from zerg hatcheries (and possibly nydus worms too, anything that's not overlord creep or creep tumours was the idea). It seems lame to me that if zerg goes pool first vs terran, zerg seems to be immediately behind against any techy terran opening, but if we hatch first, 2 rax punishes us when we might just be trying to go hatch first so as to be "safe" vs tech builds and part of the issue with the pool first being worse is that the timing for walling off on creep to help against hellions is tight enough as it is for hatchery first, so you're more likely to end up with hellions in your main base or flying around your natural, your second queen is later from pool first and thus you're even less likely to have extra creep in your main (or at the front of the natural) and then if they followed it up with 2 port banshees, heck, every bit of damage to the queens can make a huge difference, because spores and queens can't handle them when the banshees can isolate either. Spores are extremely cost efficient against banshees in theory but with air unit stacking, further spores needing to uproot to move in order to help out the one being targetted and the very high banshee damage output meaning that by the time other spores have rooted nearby, the first is gone. Point being, the trouble of early creep for pool first snowballs. For hatch first, faster initial creep spread creep would mean possibly being able to place spines a tad sooner, limiting the amount of space bunkers can be placed on and also perhaps forcing a terran to arrive just a bit sooner in order to place the first bunker, or else the creep gets in the way, which means that these aggressive terran plays that are pretty hard to really punish become just a little less economical for the terran.
Do it! ^_^
EDIT again to clarify: Actually doubling the creep generation, rather than something like 50% faster generation from hatcheries, should still be completely fine as far as I am aware, no implications, unless CatZ proxy hatches somehow allow you to then use the creep offensively quickly, but then it does take 100 seconds of a nincompoop enemy not seeing within their own base/not doing much to deal with it to allow that, so I don't think it would something strong and 'abusable', it would simply help zerg defence. A zerg could start spines at a new base just that bit sooner without the need for an overlord. It might sound drastic, but it's only the speed, not double the eventual amount of creep.
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On May 03 2012 21:31 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:30 Decendos wrote:On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now. sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...). They have more early game scouting options than anyone else! Everyone else only has workers to scout, they have workers and overlords. Terran get scans later, but also have to use mules to keep up with injects. Toss gets observers, also much later.
I'll explain to you why it is not that simple. You haven't played zerg but I'll tell you a secret, Zerg works differently than the other two races, specially in the early game everytime zerg needs to make a unit he has to make one important decision, do I make Lings-Roach or do I make a drone? You don't have simultaneous making of both like with the other races, so more than P and T, zerg NEEDS to know wtf is going on in the game, specially in the early game in which if you lose an opportunity to make a shitton of drones you'll probably lose, and if you made a shitton of drones instead of lings before a timing hits/all-in you have just lost.
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Imo is pretty stupid that in a "balance testing" map, they put golds, when in top pro tourneys, those are widely considered to be imbalanced.
And i'm pretty sure that giving queen more energy is not the way to stop the issue scouting terran all ins (notice that this happen also in TvP marine all ins).
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I like the observer and overlord speed changes. The queen change looks like it will result in a big balance shift on paper, but time will tell.
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ovie speed makes sense.
as a plat terran i don't see the merit in faster observers. blink stalker allins are already near impossible to hold on some maps for any FE build. also, spending a scan taking out obs is already a rough cost; even taking into account the delay in robo unit production (given obs rebuild). having even one less mule in the early mid game hurts a lot.
queen 50 energy is too drastic imo.
make overlord spitting creep an evo chamber upgrade.
reduce transfuse cost; with a decrease in amount healed (not proportional so it is still a buff). making the correct decision to defend an allin should be paramount. forgoing a tumor or inject in favor of a transfuse; to say possibly save your nat hatch from a bunker rush when you have lings coming would be similar to T having to scan to kill obs to stop blink stalkers.
any queen change should center around the player making an active decision to take full advantage. rather than just giving them something free imo.
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On May 03 2012 21:35 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
In addition, for all races in defence, I think it would be ideal if the range indicator (like that of Siege Tanks) was shown for Photon Cannons, Spine Crawlers, Spore Crawlers and Missile Turrets when selected by their owner, or at least the zerg ones (because the can uproot and it would be nice to see exactly how far you will want to move it BEFORE actually uprooting it, so that no time is lost by looking closely at a moving range indicator as you try to see where you'll need to plant it and marines start taking extra shots at it etc). It could be an option in the menu, at least, for more of these indicators to be shown. Having said that, I'm pretty sure there's at least one menu check-box that I don't actually know the function of. :|
I believe it's the "show building grid" option, it definitely exists, it shows for me.
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Hmm? I'll check it, but I think that just shows the building grid...not the range that units will have when they fire (only for rooted/sieged units).
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I wonder when something will be done about the terran lategame. Here some words from empirekas about TvZ:
01:26 [All] MilkEA: hey, how come 0-4 stephano? zvt imbalanced?
01:37 [All] EmpireKas: last game meet sjow
01:39 [All] EmpireKas: who played zerg
01:41 [All] EmpireKas: and he won me.
01:43 [All] MilkEA: O_O
01:52 [All] MilkEA: ghost nerf too much yea?
01:53 [All] EmpireKas: i rape him 2-0 tvt yesterday
01:59 [All] MilkEA: lol
02:01 [All] EmpireKas: just ter dont have unit
02:03 [All] EmpireKas: vs infestor
Source: http://drop.sc/171017
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Well EMP has 10 range and is energy efficient if it hits one unit, you only need them to deal with the infestors (and they are cheaper on gas), Blizzard did intend that patch to help ghosts to be good for dealing with infestors, with both snipe and EMP and it is the infestors that make the brood lords seem much scarier than they otherwise are.
EDIT for typo but also just a note to Alpino that Brood Lord tech takes a long time to get to, 40 seconds is not a lot, ghosts in smaller numbers just for the infestors are not so expensive and you really shouldn't be assuming that super late ghosts on response to already seeing brood lords is your own fault. You can get ghosts earlier to whittle down infestor numbers before brood lords are near.
Breaking news: Attempting to 'respond' to a future threat requires preperation for the future, i.e. getting them in advance when you know they're (BLs) coming, not just once you start seeing them, besides which, seeing as they're there to deal with the infestors, they're useful for helping a bio force to deal with the zerg army before hive tech kicks in and are not simply some late (failing) response.
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On May 03 2012 21:35 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
and I don't think that giving queens 25 more energy to start with will be the way to do it, Blizzard. :D
Hellions can completely negate the extra energy worth of creep anyway, if you spend it before clearing the hellions, rather than saving it for when you know they are safe (because you were hoping to get away with spreading some sooner and pushing them out).
You do realise this change will also make the creep spread start as soon as your first queen comes out, way before hellions come into play, right?
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Ok,can anybody tell me why the test map is only 2v2 mode? I create game,put on 1v1 mode but NOBODY enters!!!and in 2v2 mode people only mae stupid strategies like cannonas and rushes..nothing can be tested.This is on EU server
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On May 03 2012 21:37 Belha wrote:
Imo is pretty stupid that in a "balance testing" map, they put golds, when in top pro tourneys, those are widely considered to be imbalanced.
And i'm pretty sure that giving queen more energy is not the way to stop the issue scouting terran all ins (notice that this happen also in TvP marine all ins).
This.
Also, the map is a bit flimsy because center control is way too important on that map.
If you are terran you need to control the center to be able to defend a 4th base.
But remember that they used the ladder versions of their maps at the Blizzcon tournament. It was hilarious to watch MVP vs NesTea in close positions on shattered temple 
Balancing a RTS game is hard, so there will be many opportunities for taking cheap shots at the balance team.
For the very same reason I think it is important to take input from high level programmers.
QXC suggested that they should hire someone like Gretorp to help them out with the balance, and I agree with him.
It seems like Blizzard is a bit off / behind in this aspect. Their balance comments appear at seemingly random times and contain confusing and illogical reasoning.
As an exampe they say that they balance for only the highest level of play, but the statistics they use is taken from the ladder.
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On May 03 2012 21:51 Snowbear wrote:I wonder when something will be done about the terran lategame. Here some words from empirekas about TvZ: 01:26 [All] MilkEA: hey, how come 0-4 stephano? zvt imbalanced? 01:37 [All] EmpireKas: last game meet sjow 01:39 [All] EmpireKas: who played zerg 01:41 [All] EmpireKas: and he won me. 01:43 [All] MilkEA: O_O 01:52 [All] MilkEA: ghost nerf too much yea? 01:53 [All] EmpireKas: i rape him 2-0 tvt yesterday 01:59 [All] MilkEA: lol 02:01 [All] EmpireKas: just ter dont have unit 02:03 [All] EmpireKas: vs infestor Source: http://drop.sc/171017
He 3-1ed ret that tournament.He is exaggerating.
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On May 03 2012 21:51 Snowbear wrote:I wonder when something will be done about the terran lategame. Here some words from empirekas about TvZ: 01:26 [All] MilkEA: hey, how come 0-4 stephano? zvt imbalanced? 01:37 [All] EmpireKas: last game meet sjow 01:39 [All] EmpireKas: who played zerg 01:41 [All] EmpireKas: and he won me. 01:43 [All] MilkEA: O_O 01:52 [All] MilkEA: ghost nerf too much yea? 01:53 [All] EmpireKas: i rape him 2-0 tvt yesterday 01:59 [All] MilkEA: lol 02:01 [All] EmpireKas: just ter dont have unit 02:03 [All] EmpireKas: vs infestor Source: http://drop.sc/171017
Korean terrans are doing amazingly well against TvZ late game, to the point where many zergs are using baneling/roach/speedling all in's because they fear the terran late game. Mass medivacs are the counter to fungal growth. Drops are the counter to broodlord infestor.
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On May 03 2012 21:36 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:31 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:30 Decendos wrote:On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now. sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...). They have more early game scouting options than anyone else! Everyone else only has workers to scout, they have workers and overlords. Terran get scans later, but also have to use mules to keep up with injects. Toss gets observers, also much later. I'll explain to you why it is not that simple. You haven't played zerg but I'll tell you a secret, Zerg works differently than the other two races, specially in the early game everytime zerg needs to make a unit he has to make one important decision, do I make Lings-Roach or do I make a drone? You don't have simultaneous making of both like with the other races, so more than P and T, zerg NEEDS to know wtf is going on in the game, specially in the early game in which if you lose an opportunity to make a shitton of drones you'll probably lose, and if you made a shitton of drones instead of lings before a timing hits/all-in you have just lost.
I could argue literally the exact same thing, except I would compare making 2 extra barracks + reactors versus making a command center. The other 2 races have to make the exact same decisions of being greedy and having less units as zerg.
Only difference is, zerg have to do it more often (every inject cycle versus every 4-5 minutes like T/P)
I wish people would stop pretending like its still 2010 and zerg is some sort of fragile flower, with zerg players actually being macro gods.
Guess what, if I make 2 command centers off of 1 barracks, I'll probably lose too.
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On May 03 2012 21:50 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
Hmm? I'll check it, but I think that just shows the building grid...not the range that units will have when they fire (only for rooted/sieged units).
It does, it's super important to know where to place the spine crawler against a bunker rush.
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On May 03 2012 21:59 Soda-88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:35 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
and I don't think that giving queens 25 more energy to start with will be the way to do it, Blizzard. :D
Hellions can completely negate the extra energy worth of creep anyway, if you spend it before clearing the hellions, rather than saving it for when you know they are safe (because you were hoping to get away with spreading some sooner and pushing them out). You do realise this change will also make the creep spread start as soon as your first queen comes out, way before hellions come into play, right?
Yes, but without the creep from the natural to plant a tumor, this will join the main to the natural, maybe get to the ramp at the end of natural. But reactor hellion expand will still get there in time to prevent it from going beyond that until you push out with roaches.
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You can't put up polls like this, they will just be heavily biased. All T and P will ofc disagree without even considering the change because they dont want Z to get a buff. And ofc all Z will agree.
If Blizzard looks from this poll when judgeing whats best im blown away.
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Ovie speed is awesome and should get to patch notes soon .
Queen change is WAY to drastic and Id even say its imbalanced; 2 tumors AND inject at start is just insane not to mention third queen with double tumor .. that would be just silly
Obsever change is ok and should get to patch notes aswell
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On May 03 2012 21:59 Soda-88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:35 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:
and I don't think that giving queens 25 more energy to start with will be the way to do it, Blizzard. :D
Hellions can completely negate the extra energy worth of creep anyway, if you spend it before clearing the hellions, rather than saving it for when you know they are safe (because you were hoping to get away with spreading some sooner and pushing them out). You do realise this change will also make the creep spread start as soon as your first queen comes out, way before hellions come into play, right?
Yes. The creep from the tumour would also only start ~16 seconds after the queen popped out due to 1 second reaction time and 15 second building time. Do you realise that creep tumours made earlier can also be killed by hellions? :D
It would be useful, of course, but in that post I point out that I think increased creep growth speed from hatcheries would be a better change. You can't use your energy for creep until the hellions are gone anyway (or rather, you can try but you'll often have the tumours killed and have wasted the energy) and they can't so easily take down the hatchery that produces the base creep at the natural.
I wouldn't mind the 50 energy change, I just don't see it going through and I think that buffing the rate of buildings creep spread would really help the situation too but in a way that is impossible to negate without knocking out the actual expansion too.
It seems odd that they have a PTR and have been using it less and less and now are launching custom maps for it instead, but then they are looking to just test a small number of changes, so I understand why.
At Veriol (above), actually, having the creep within your base for things like banshee all-ins and crazy, risky, reaper heavy play would probably be fair enough, I don't think that would be the trouble. It might be more of an issue of all new queens can spread two tumours when popping later on though, or being able to make new queens fresh for late game transfusions, although maybe that's just what zerg needs for late game and obviously the creep still requires the investment, it's not like the hatchery has the energy for creep and Blizzard wants to double the amount of tumours that a distant hatchery can spread.
EDIT: At NeonFox, yes, but that only works when the crawler is already unburrowed, rather than when it is burrowed as well. You cannot click the BURROWED spine to see exactly how far it can CURRENTLY hit in order to know -in advance- how far you will need to move it, so as to avoid any delay in planting it where you need to when trying to deal with a frantic bunker-2rax while lings' AI means they need to hold position or suicide to doom. Every little bit of knowledge in advance is precious.
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EPT
