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Man, more creep early may even benefit Hydras a little.  ...............On a more serious note.I think we're overreacting a little bit with the queen. We simply need more data to draw any conclusion.
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On May 03 2012 20:54 AdrianHealey wrote:
Something like: all hatcheries get one creep tumour as soon as there is a spawning pool. Something like that?
I think that would work fine without having an increase in transfuses in the beginning. Also it would increase the creep spread of low queen count builds by a higher percent than those who build multiple queens.
IE before, if you went quick 4 queens you would have 6 tumors running around, if you went quick 4 queens now you would only have 4 tumors.
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Queen change is rediculously stupid, 2 extra free tumors at the start of the game is just huge, especially in PvZ. Ironically in ZvT it might not even do that much because the hellions could still block the tumors possibly.
The change would also completely nullify air in PvZ dumbing that matchup down. The third base will always be connected by creep as you can start spreading creep immediately between all bases with your 2 free tumors while massively droning AND one extra queen will completely stomp voidray pressure now because your queen will start with enough energy to transfuse!
Just change creep spread in a different way, for example give tumors a few more hitpoints so it's much harder to deny with hellions.
Observer build time change seems a bit unneccesary, I don't think it will cause any problems but I don't see observer build time being any problem so far. If anything it will make robo even more dominant i guess and you'll just get to scout bases 10 secs faster for free reducing the need to make a robo fast more so. On 2 observers it's a 20 second difference which is fairly big especially against cloak banshee play or 1-1-1 play where that robo build time can be critical. For PvP it also seems a fairly big change making robo blink and just robo a fair bit stronger, 10s is actually quite big there.
Overlord speed change seems alright and i agree zerg could use some better scouting, the current trend of maps getting bigger did give zerg some problems as often they can't even reach the enemy base in time.
Still overall I feel they are missing the crucial problems with these changes:
- TvP still feels like a game on a clock. T has an advantage early on with tons of strong 1 or 2 base allins but P is massively advantaged later on. I would love to see the BC getting buffed back into a useful unit for TvP so that T can actually transition into that, in return for example the wide range of T all-ins could be nerfed just a very little bit.
- PvZ 2 base all-ins weakened a bit. Creep change already helps against this, but at the same time it would be good to see lategame PvZ be more fun and not be about massive spine crawler walls so much.. P is pretty much forced to all-in often just to keep stuff in check a bit, on most maps stargate harass is not even any good anymore as voids take ages to cross the map.
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On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb.
Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv).
Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both.
That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects.
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On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb.
Just like building a Queen is an opportunity cost. Every time you build a queen, you chose not to build another hatchery.
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On May 03 2012 12:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 12:56 Sajaki wrote:
I think people who play terran are masochists to stick with the race tbh. I REALLY hope something is done about lategame... soon.
This is a total dissapointment. The overlord speed is totally understandable, but the queen suggestion is just plain stupid.. And protoss dont need faster observers, with chrono and all. It will make scanning to kill them even less valuable then it already is because less robo time wasted.. They aren't going to buff Terran lategame until they nerf Terran early game (read: marines) so that the overall balance remains ~50%.
Yes, let's buff terran early game, so protoss allins get even more strong, or let's talk about the roach ling bling allin? Terran early game is not as strong as people tell. It WAS strong, BEFORE it got nerfed into oblivion!
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On May 03 2012 21:08 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Just like building a Queen is an opportunity cost. Every time you build a queen, you chose not to build another hatchery.
But queens serve a lot of different purposes too.
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making me sad to see how the "balance" develops... the strong point about terran is the number of options they have in the openings, right now its already gotten to the point where terran is the least played race in all leagues from bronze to gm, only korean gm being the exception...
the continuing nerfs are disheartening, its sad to loose to players who play a very easy to execute style whcih only works because of their race
its sad that a terran gm who switches to toss for a few games wins vs equal grandmasters without even knowing buildorders etc.
if this patch hits, hellion openings become useless vs z, zerg gets even more scouting infos, and tvz will transform into zvp with maxed 11 minute timings
tvp gets even more onesided now that cloak wont do any dmg anymore, and tosses can go ahead and build blind 2 base allin timings like squirtel does in all of his games
this game is transforming into a boring and unfair one
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On May 03 2012 21:16 mEtRoSG wrote:
making me sad to see how the "balance" develops... the strong point about terran is the number of options they have in the openings, right now its already gotten to the point where terran is the least played race in all leagues from bronze to gm, only korean gm being the exception...
the continuing nerfs are disheartening, its sad to loose to players who play a very easy to execute style whcih only works because of their race
its sad that a terran gm who switches to toss for a few games wins vs equal grandmasters without even knowing buildorders etc.
if this patch hits, hellion openings become useless vs z, zerg gets even more scouting infos, and tvz will transform into zvp with maxed 11 minute timings
tvp gets even more onesided now that cloak wont do any dmg anymore, and tosses can go ahead and build blind 2 base allin timings like squirtel does in all of his games
this game is transforming into a boring and unfair one
Terran is, has always been and will always be the most played race in Bronze. :D
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The queen change is so dumb. The rest seems fine.
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blizzard, gtfo my porch. ARE YOU SERIOUS?!
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I think, you should increase overlord starting armor by 3 on top of the speed. Because the only real threat is being killed by marines and any tech you'd want to scout, inevitably has a low marine count.
Also the speed change doesn't do much. It would be better if overlords had a temporary speed boost, like blizzard wants to give battlecruisers.
The queen energy thing i'm, torn on. I disagree that they should have that much energy to start with, maybe instead reduce the energy cost for tumor? or build time / hp?
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On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects.
So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units?
The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now.
If the zerg can be safe and drone without fear of any early pressure or cheese, like every other race has to deal with, it would simply not be fair.
And you are using 'coinflip' wrong. They weren't guessing of droning and safety, they are simply throwing caution to the wind and drone up regardless, excepting to defend with the drones. If they expect to be safe while not making units, then they don't understand the game.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:18 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:16 mEtRoSG wrote:
making me sad to see how the "balance" develops... the strong point about terran is the number of options they have in the openings, right now its already gotten to the point where terran is the least played race in all leagues from bronze to gm, only korean gm being the exception...
the continuing nerfs are disheartening, its sad to loose to players who play a very easy to execute style whcih only works because of their race
its sad that a terran gm who switches to toss for a few games wins vs equal grandmasters without even knowing buildorders etc.
if this patch hits, hellion openings become useless vs z, zerg gets even more scouting infos, and tvz will transform into zvp with maxed 11 minute timings
tvp gets even more onesided now that cloak wont do any dmg anymore, and tosses can go ahead and build blind 2 base allin timings like squirtel does in all of his games
this game is transforming into a boring and unfair one Terran is, has always been and will always be the most played race in Bronze. :D
Yup.
Also, I don't think terran is performing especially poorly. This is the first GSL in a long time where Terran had only one player in the top 4. Clearly, protoss is OP.
The only change that might have shifted the way the matchup plays is the EMP radius nerf which prior to that protoss barely made a dent in the GSL and other tournaments.
Let us also remember that other than stim marine tank timings, Terrans haven't changed their approach to the game much in PvT. Protoss is defending drops better I guess and we are using High templar more. But that doesn't instantly mean protoss is OP, protoss is making use of strong AoE against marine and marauder.
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Are they completely ignoring the recent protoss DOMINATION in GSL? 5 of the final 8 and 3 of the final 4 are toss...
But you're totally right blizz, they need to have their observer buffed, again.... and the queen change is ridiculous. Still not even a mention of the retardation that is the strike cannon and thor energy =[
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On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now.
sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...).
btw queen change is too much, although mass queen is awesome :D
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On May 03 2012 21:30 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now. sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...).
They have more early game scouting options than anyone else!
Everyone else only has workers to scout, they have workers and overlords.
Terran get scans later, but also have to use mules to keep up with injects.
Toss gets observers, also much later.
To me it feels like zerg meta game and style has been all about greedy macro. Now some feel they are entitled to it without having to make defenses and want that greedy macro to simply be easier to execute and less work to defend.
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This is just a test guys, suck it up. OL change is fine, but Terran needs some love too imo. I really don't like the obs change.
On May 03 2012 21:31 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:30 Decendos wrote:On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now. sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...). They have more early game scouting options than anyone else! Everyone else only has workers to scout, they have workers and overlords. Terran get scans later, but also have to use mules to keep up with injects. Toss gets observers, also much later.
I'll explain to you why it is not that simple. You haven't played zerg but I'll tell you a secret, Zerg works differently than the other two races, specially in the early game everytime zerg needs to make a unit he has to make one important decision, do I make Lings-Roach or do I make a drone? You don't have simultaneous making of both like with the other races, so more than P and T, zerg NEEDS to know wtf is going on in the game, specially in the early game in which if you lose an opportunity to make a shitton of drones you'll probably lose, and if you made a shitton of drones instead of lings before a timing hits/all-in you have just lost.
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Norway589 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:31 MrCash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:30 Decendos wrote:On May 03 2012 21:26 MrCash wrote:On May 03 2012 21:08 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 21:03 Baum wrote:On May 03 2012 21:00 ThomasHobbes wrote:On May 03 2012 20:48 nOondn wrote:On May 03 2012 20:39 Tsubbi wrote:
i feel like people overreact to the queen change, this change is aimed at helping zvt early game and this is exactly where it comes into play as the 2 free creeptumors from the first two queens are gonna connect the main and natural and start creep in front of the natural to the ramp (on most maps), any further creep onto the map can still be delayed by hellions
i guess terran are used to having total mapcontrol, perfect scouting, denying creep spread and building 3 cc's safely every game by building 4-6 hellions, was about time something changes (as morrow once said, he feels guilty using hellions in tvz) Becuase now zerg don't need to make "dicision" anymore becuase you can do both "inject" and "Creep spread" at the same time , so it cuase game mechanic broken while the other race need to have dicision making in the early game. Sort of like how salvage lets the Terran have immediate defense without regard for long term cost or necessity. Let me know, I'm willing to scrap these changes for Blizzard to scrap salvage. Building bunkers is an opportunity cost. If you build a bunker you still have to delay something else for 120 minerals. Sure you can salvage them later on but terran has to spend a lot of money and time in infrastructure anyways. Also bunkers don't fight on their own and can't be moved so they get more and more useless as the game goes on compared to spinecrawlers which can be moved throughout the game. So this comparison is just dumb. Early bunkers do a huge amount of damage if they get, do not greatly inhibit the ability of the Terran to macro, and can be canceled / salvaged to regain what was lost. The opportunity cost is offset by the lost mining time the Zerg faces as he is forced to pull drones (3-4 per marine and 2-3 per scv). Blizzard is stating quite clearly that Zerg does not have strong enough early game scouting. They weren't supposed to make a coinflip between safety or drones, they were supposed to be allowed to get both. That said, the 50 energy start will probably be toned down, but it never made any sense that the queen energy actually didn't allow for perfect reinjects. So you are saying zerg should be able to drone up and be completely safe without having to make units? The reasons zergs get pressured is to force them to stop droning or make units. If you get a 15 pool, when your opponent makes 2 unit producing building at 11, it's like a Terran complaining he got 6 pooled and didn't make a rax until 16 supply. Otherwise once the spine goes up, some don't even bother getting 2 lings they feel so safe now. sure you should be able to force zerg building units. but the zerg play should be able to scout it and make units. so you still can do damage by pressuring zerg (damage here is units instead of drones) but terra wont get the free wins anymore in early game (or at least not as many...). They have more early game scouting options than anyone else! Everyone else only has workers to scout, they have workers and overlords. Terran get scans later, but also have to use mules to keep up with injects. Toss gets observers, also much later.
Zerg cannot hide tech early on, and they cannot wall off, so they are supposed to have better scouting to make up for this.
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On May 03 2012 14:25 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 14:22 Arkansassy wrote:
+ We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
- We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.
Sorry, but haven't they "WATCHED" this long enough? Seriously. I think all Terrans should just switch races and let the Terran die. Blizzard is trying to kill them anyway - or so it seems. Very mature approach... What if Protoss took the same approach because Terran so imbalanced early/mid game PvT ?
Terran being imbalanced early - mid game is just a pure MYTH. It's not true at all! If terran was so strong early-mid game, then why don't we see a total terran dominance over protoss?
A nice example is the 2rax vs 1gate nexus. If the toss reacts properly, the terran will lose his army, and then lose to the pressure, unless he bunkers up (and then he is behind). The 1-1-1 is a strong allin, but not stronger then certain protoss allins (cf. GSL).
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|
|
EPT
