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On April 30 2012 18:50 pedduck wrote:
May be it is karma. In sc1 there is nothing toss can do to stop 200|200 mech (unless mass carier). So they have to use arbiter to backstab terran by using recall. I feel that the situation is kind reverse in sc2. Now it is terran that can not fight head on. We terran will just have to think of a better way to win than just stim in to the diedball of toss
I agree with this, perhaps a solution would be to go 2 starports earlier, so you're always ready to ferry your entire army into their main.
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sure lategame TvP seems to be tougher for the terran player.
but boy o boy. i stopped reading here on page 20+ because i could take the terran whines anymore.
for me i think the only interesting part about BALANCE is the upper end of the line - the GSL.
when player fail at lower rankings its because the canot use their race to the maximum. it is impossible to balance the game on all levels of skill. this is true for ALL RTS games. it was true as well for sc/bw.
so leeve the weaker players alone and fix the balance for the elite seems to be the best option.
if you check the latest results of GSL and MLG and so on, every race has some winners in it. some times the metashift favours a single race (like P right now in late game 200/200 fights) untill the pros figuere out how to beat it and things will change again.
check for example GSL stats and you see beside ZvsP with a nice 32% winratio for Zerg, every matchup is around that 50% mark and so what?
in GSl history there was only ONE FUCKING PROTOSS to ever make it (Sk.2base-allin).
so just let them get a new tilte... protoss not winning anything still terrans cry me a river in ALL TLLR and in here.
the game is pretty much balanced over all, still those little timezone where one race is stronger then another will allways be there and i like it
btw im a zerg player and i still think the game is pretty much balanced although in the last 2 season of GSL there where 2 zergs in the RO8 together.... but we had our one champion who showed us zerg isnt underpowered we just need to get better
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On April 30 2012 18:43 Strike_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing beat huk with mech in the spring arena
you mean the game where HuK forgot charge till he was basically dead? And this was after MKP got stupidly far ahead?
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On April 30 2012 18:24 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 18:20 Big J wrote:On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want? There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech. But how do you force someone into a head on fight without exposing yourself? At this time mech works in some cases probably mostly because people arn't used to play against it.
In my strategy, the only moment where i try to force a fight is when my army is good enough to win even without having a position advantage or thing like that. Mech is insanely good in defense before lategame, and you can switch to offensive play when your DoomBall is on the field
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On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
You know why toss never loses to mech? Iknow
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well true mech is really weak against protoss most of the time.
but hey you know what ?
zealots are weak pvz and you know whats even weaker then all this?
HYDRAS :D
take a look how often hydras are beeing used (ok there is this freaky 2 base nydus worm hydra push which sometimes work, but thats about it)
any one seen hydras in zvt ? :D any? :D in like all gsl games together?
so true, mech is weak against P but some units of it can bring a little powerfull bonuss. like some blueflame helions vs zealots behin the bio ball.
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On April 30 2012 19:54 grummel wrote:
well true mech is really weak against protoss most of the time.
but hey you know what ?
zealots are weak pvz and you know whats even weaker then all this?
HYDRAS :D
take a look how often hydras are beeing used (ok there is this freaky 2 base nydus worm hydra push which sometimes work, but thats about it)
any one seen hydras in zvt ? :D any? :D in like all gsl games together?
so true, mech is weak against P but some units of it can bring a little powerfull bonuss. like some blueflame helions vs zealots behin the bio ball.
They don't work perfectly, but I think blue flame hellions can be scary if used in a timing or drop. I often wonder blue flame hellions could be added to standard terran builds as a harassing tool. They already have the factory, they just need a tech lab long enough to research blue flame.
Not sure if it is viable or an option, blue flame helllions are scary if used well for harassment.
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Hydras are the equivalent to reapers, sorry to bust your bubble but the new blizzard likes shitty units. Eg. the hydralisk, reaper, viking. All pretty much useless except in key situations(the reaper is useless pretty much any time but the first 5 min of the game for scouting) But no I havent seen any hydras en-masse, just like I haven't seen any reapers en-masse. Basically, the hydralisk has been replaced by the infestor because it does the job better. Reaper has been replaced by the marine late game anyways because of drop ship and dps.
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true there just are some units which doesnt work @ all :D
but man the good old hydra. from beeing one of the most used units in SC down to NEVER EVER USE THIS SHIT :D
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On April 30 2012 18:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want? There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech.
MKP lost like every engagement with set siege line, he won thank to few lucky hellion runbys killing a lot of probes.
Not good example of Mech beating Protoss army.
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On April 30 2012 20:12 Pwnani wrote:
Hydras are the equivalent to reapers, sorry to bust your bubble but the new blizzard likes shitty units. Eg. the hydralisk, reaper, viking. All pretty much useless except in key situations(the reaper is useless pretty much any time but the first 5 min of the game for scouting) But no I havent seen any hydras en-masse, just like I haven't seen any reapers en-masse. Basically, the hydralisk has been replaced by the infestor because it does the job better. Reaper has been replaced by the marine late game anyways because of drop ship and dps.
Vikings are good, they do their job in the situation...
Hydralisks get torn apart vs the units they are supposed to counter. Reapers and Carriers are also bad. I don't even know if you're trolling by saying Vikings are bad, because they certainly aren't. They are used in every matchup in every game that reaches midgame pretty much (lategame in TvZ). They have a specific role yes, but at least they are good at doing whhat they're supposed to do.
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On April 30 2012 18:53 KhAmun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 18:43 Strike_ wrote:On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing beat huk with mech in the spring arena Marineking also beat genius in group play with mech a season or two ago. Don't remember the game precisely, I think mkp killed tons of probes, got way ahead, and still looked like it would be close, though.
Basically the type of situation where if he had played normal it would have been one sided?
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On April 30 2012 20:25 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 18:20 Big J wrote:On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want? There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech. MKP lost like every engagement with set siege line, he won thank to few lucky hellion runbys killing a lot of probes. Not good example of Mech beating Protoss army.
Yeah, hellion runbys are totally luckbased, they have nothing to do with the unit being fast and killing a ton of workers in a few seconds. And loading them into a medivac and dropping them in a mineral line is absolutly luckbased.
And which engagements did he lose? Genius was barely able to raise enough of an army from his hurt economy to prevent MKP from just rolling in and killing him, while MKP was expanding, upgrading and adding tech during all this. That's not "losing an engagement", that's "getting further ahead by forcing equal trades of a better economy".
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On April 30 2012 21:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 20:25 keglu wrote:On April 30 2012 18:20 Big J wrote:On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want? There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech. MKP lost like every engagement with set siege line, he won thank to few lucky hellion runbys killing a lot of probes. Not good example of Mech beating Protoss army. Yeah, hellion runbys are totally luckbased, they have nothing to do with the unit being fast and killing a ton of workers in a few seconds. And loading them into a medivac and dropping them in a mineral line is absolutly luckbased. And which engagements did he lose? Genius was barely able to raise enough of an army from his hurt economy to prevent MKP from just rolling in and killing him, while MKP was expanding, upgrading and adding tech during all this. That's not "losing an engagement", that's "getting further ahead by forcing equal trades of a better economy".
Tbh i dont wanna like teach terran how to play from a protoss point of view, but they just dont seems to understand how effective are hellions in this MU.(in every MU actually)
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On April 30 2012 20:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 20:12 Pwnani wrote:
Hydras are the equivalent to reapers, sorry to bust your bubble but the new blizzard likes shitty units. Eg. the hydralisk, reaper, viking. All pretty much useless except in key situations(the reaper is useless pretty much any time but the first 5 min of the game for scouting) But no I havent seen any hydras en-masse, just like I haven't seen any reapers en-masse. Basically, the hydralisk has been replaced by the infestor because it does the job better. Reaper has been replaced by the marine late game anyways because of drop ship and dps. Vikings are good, they do their job in the situation... Hydralisks get torn apart vs the units they are supposed to counter. Reapers and Carriers are also bad. I don't even know if you're trolling by saying Vikings are bad, because they certainly aren't. They are used in every matchup in every game that reaches midgame pretty much (lategame in TvZ). They have a specific role yes, but at least they are good at doing whhat they're supposed to do.
I agree with your statements on the viking, reaper, and carrier, but hydralisks are fucking great against mass gateway pushes (which are "the units they're supposed to counter"). They're not great for much else though.
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true but guess what. if toss does not scout hydrass en masse in time they forcefield you off run back turtle up and build colossi which so damn hardcounter hydras that they are useless if you cant treat them away very efficent before colossi are out.
and its not that P cant scout mass hydras. but yea you got a point here, they ARE good vs gateway units (if no temps are included), but the standard tech path counter them so hard its unbelievable 
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but convinsing me as a zerg player that this means hydras are usefull would be as if i try to convince a terran that reapers are usefull because they counter speedling/baneling all ins
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Zerg doesn't need better early game scouting, if zergs are able to know easily what a terran is doing early game I think it would shift ZvT heavily in Z favor.
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On April 30 2012 21:34 grummel wrote:but convinsing me as a zerg player that this means hydras are usefull would be as if i try to convince a terran that reapers are usefull because they counter speedling/baneling all ins
I think Hydras ARE good they just require a rather massive economy and they act more as a support unit in sc2. Roach/hydra can be potent as can hydra/ling, it really just depends on what match up and scenario you're in.
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well. i dont know if you are a zerg player. but hydras are just too cheesy to really be called good.
hydra ling sure is good against pure gateway units, but no toss will try to kill you with gateway units when he sees that you build hydras.
roach hydra are only usefull in zvz, buit even there you see a pure roach/infestor army allways beeting roach/hydra. if the fight is not at a sick chokepoint where the small range advantage can really kick in.
against terran there is no use of roach/hydra nor hydra/ling nor any hydra at all
i mean yea there are a very few times hydras CAN be used, but i still almost never see them in zvp unless its nydus allin, and i see them as a counter to mutas, but then most of the time beeing crushed anyways.
hydras are so slow, that the muta zerg takes another base flys away and switches to roach/festor.
hydra need a speed buff thats all they would need but maybe they would be too strong then, dont know.
propably im just too bad to use them but they are so rare in gsl games as well i feel they are not really good
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EPT
