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Yama93
Netherlands70 Posts
On April 30 2012 18:53 kyllinghest wrote: I agree with this, perhaps a solution would be to go 2 starports earlier, so you're always ready to ferry your entire army into their main. Yes because you will have any army left :') | ||
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CDR
Poland84 Posts
On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote: Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. Today, LastShadow vs MVPTails, Playhem NA. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote: Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. Gorapadong is a KOR high master (GM?) who is always meching on the KOR server. MKP used his build a good amount of times, and won a big amount of games with it. Lastshadow's last replay pack shows a lot of mech games versus pro KOR P. And there is also a lot of less-known people who are meching at GM/high master lvl | ||
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Yama93
Netherlands70 Posts
On April 30 2012 21:44 NeonFox wrote: Zerg doesn't need better early game scouting, if zergs are able to know easily what a terran is doing early game I think it would shift ZvT heavily in Z favor. I don't mind because theres like 5 openings that work. The rest is luck based or bad. Most of the good openings always end up being scouted anyways, Its really easy to scout hellion, to scout cc first, to scout 1 rax expo, to scout reaper. The only issue might be banshee. So no, its not that suddenly the matchup will be imbalanced because theres nothing terran can open with anymore. Its just a little more narrowed down, which I don't really mind. This comes from a Terran POV. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:07 Yama93 wrote: I don't mind because theres like 5 openings that work. The rest is luck based or bad. Most of the good openings always end up being scouted anyways, Its really easy to scout hellion, to scout cc first, to scout 1 rax expo, to scout reaper. The only issue might be banshee. So no, its not that suddenly the matchup will be imbalanced because theres nothing terran can open with anymore. Its just a little more narrowed down, which I don't really mind. This comes from a Terran POV. And I say this from a zerg pov ^^ With roach expands now zergs can take early thirds against hellions, and the only thing stopping us from massively droning up is the fear of marauder/hellion, banshees, double medivac drops, marine & bf hellions, etc. But I guess the only way to be sure of that would be to actually see what they propose (if they do) and the impact it would have. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 30 2012 21:46 Neurosis wrote: I think Hydras ARE good they just require a rather massive economy and they act more as a support unit in sc2. Roach/hydra can be potent as can hydra/ling, it really just depends on what match up and scenario you're in. roach/hydra is good in ZvZ, because there is no costefficient counter to the roach and roach/hydra > roach. Mass Gateway is similar, yet mass blink stalker alone is already evenly supplyefficient in direct spread out combat (just tested this again to make sure, the 3-3-0 48 stalkers barely won against the 3-3 24/24 roach/hydra). That's not to say that roach/hydra is bad against those (it's costefficient in a lot of circumstances), but it shows how little endgame potential anything "range" based has. You are basically in allin mode, once you put down a hydralisk den. Against Terran... Yeah, if he goes for some Thorbased Mech roach/hydra can be efficient, yet there is hardly anything that can be achieved with hydras, that can't be achieved with roaches alone. You win "premax" open field, you get crushed at the "max" everywhere. | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:15 NeonFox wrote: And I say this from a zerg pov ^^ With roach expands now zergs can take early thirds against hellions, and the only thing stopping us from massively droning up is the fear of marauder/hellion, banshees, double medivac drops, marine & bf hellions, etc. But I guess the only way to be sure of that would be to actually see what they propose (if they do) and the impact it would have. What? There is something stopping us from massively droning up? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote: About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly. Nvm... I cannot even make fun of this. | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:07 Lyyna wrote: Gorapadong is a KOR high master (GM?) who is always meching on the KOR server. MKP used his build a good amount of times, and won a big amount of games with it. Lastshadow's last replay pack shows a lot of mech games versus pro KOR P. And there is also a lot of less-known people who are meching at GM/high master lvl Gorapadong is low master =) | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
My bad. Still not bad on KOR servers (some foreigners pro even have problems getting in master in KOR, so it shows the level there . .). And the fact his build is used by MKP shows that there is good possibilities and that regardless of what some people claims, there is some unexplored (and good) things in mech vP | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 30 2012 20:43 DrPandaPhD wrote: Vikings are good, they do their job in the situation... Hydralisks get torn apart vs the units they are supposed to counter. Reapers and Carriers are also bad. I don't even know if you're trolling by saying Vikings are bad, because they certainly aren't. They are used in every matchup in every game that reaches midgame pretty much (lategame in TvZ). They have a specific role yes, but at least they are good at doing whhat they're supposed to do. and then they are wasted supply after they do their job and the Toss or Zerg tech switches to something. They aren't a good unit, and it's a horrible design | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:42 Chaggi wrote: and then they are wasted supply after they do their job and the Toss or Zerg tech switches to something. They aren't a good unit, and it's a horrible design Making vikings better in ground mode or have a usefull ability once on the ground would be a great way to buff lategame terran easily imo. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:50 NeonFox wrote: Making vikings better in ground mode or have a usefull ability once on the ground would be a great way to buff lategame terran easily imo. Only thing I would like to be changed on viking is that it would change between the modes faster. Would be so much fun to harass with the unit when it could quickly change into the air mode and go away. =P | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:35 Lyyna wrote: My bad. Still not bad on KOR servers (some foreigners pro even have problems getting in master in KOR, so it shows the level there . .). And the fact his build is used by MKP shows that there is good possibilities and that regardless of what some people claims, there is some unexplored (and good) things in mech vP Low master on Korea server isn't really THAT good. My friend from school made it into masters on KR server with a ton of lag (hes rank 1 NA masters). I'd guarantee you any real SC2 pro could easily make masters on KR. I don't want to bash your style, Lyyna, but it's not viable. It must work for you somewhat as you have reached a pretty high level on EU, but that doesn't mean it should become a standard in the match up. And I wish Protoss players would stop pointing to you as proof that mech works TvP. Korean Terrans have repeatedly said that mech is NOT viable TvP and even LS himself has said that mech is NOT viable at the highest level of play, irregardless of his replay pack. If we want to apply this chain of reasoning to Z/P.... There is a high masters EU Protoss named Gaulzi who cannon rushes every game. I guess Protoss can stop complaining about early game instability. You guys have obviously not tried the Gaulzi strat if you're dying to Terrans in early game. It's completely viable, been shown to work by Gaulzi. Apparently there is also some random foreign Zerg who reached rank 1 GM on KR by only 6 pooling. I guess 6 pool is super viable and Zergs need to just get good and not complain about early game. There's an obvious problem with pointing to two (no offense) random average masters player's unusual play styles and calling them legit. And just because MKP used a mech build in a single game of GSL doesn't make it a viable mainstay of the matchup. | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
MKP actually used mech once recently, and I dont think MKP would use mech if mech were playstyle that was "auto loss". We could always point out players mistake in pro games even, and use that as an argument why bio is not viable in TvP. "protos could have done this instead of that and thats why he lost that game" You get the point. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:07 Yama93 wrote: I don't mind because theres like 5 openings that work. The rest is luck based or bad. Most of the good openings always end up being scouted anyways, Its really easy to scout hellion, to scout cc first, to scout 1 rax expo, to scout reaper. The only issue might be banshee. So no, its not that suddenly the matchup will be imbalanced because theres nothing terran can open with anymore. Its just a little more narrowed down, which I don't really mind. This comes from a Terran POV. those different types of 1base allin or fast expansions from 1base to 2base are indeed not that scary and are possible to scout the issue zerg has to scout of terran is what sort of 2base they do. mass marauder hellion or 3cc or double medivac for example, are all very different builds that are also countered or rather adapted to very differently from the zerg. at that stage of the game its hard to scout anything because the hellions already have mapcontrol and theres usually a bunker and supply depot wall denying scouting and terran usually have enough marines or marines in position to deny overlord saccing. also at this timing zerg does not have lair | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:07 Lyyna wrote: Gorapadong is a KOR high master (GM?) who is always meching on the KOR server. MKP used his build a good amount of times, and won a big amount of games with it. Lastshadow's last replay pack shows a lot of mech games versus pro KOR P. And there is also a lot of less-known people who are meching at GM/high master lvl Jinro did some last night. It's still too hard to pull off IMO, but possible at least, since Browder seems to be so anti-tank. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 23:31 0neder wrote: Jinro did some last night. It's still too hard to pull off IMO, but possible at least, since Browder seems to be so anti-tank. Possible and viable are too very different things. Protoss players have seemed to forgotten that when it comes to mech TvP. "Hey look! Mech has been used in 4 pro games over a whole year! Mech so STRONK!!" | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
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