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On April 30 2012 23:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
If the style is not automatic loss, then it is viable gamestyle. Also people have this misconception that mech only means factory units. Mech means mechanical, and mechanical units are built also in starport.
Ok then, I guess you agree with what I said earlier? Protoss and Zerg early game is fine because cannon rush and 6 pool are completely viable vT. As shown by Gaulzi and Habit.
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On April 30 2012 22:30 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly. Nvm... I cannot even make fun of this.
Maybe because you're wrong and you're an idiot.
A few of my replays in master league demonstrating at the very least that mech can work at a relatively high level and maxed mech armies can annihilate protoss maxed armies, although i've been adding late game ghosts lately to help deal with immortal/archon heavy compositions.
http://drop.sc/155312
Multiple maxed situations, crazy Protoss compositions, etc.
http://drop.sc/160703
This one is a really good one from Daybreak, I actually lose a maxed army but the Protoss can't roll in because he doesn't have any income after I sniped his expo.
http://drop.sc/161197
Here's one where the Protoss took the 'abuse mobility' route. This was a really fun game.
http://drop.sc/155317
This one demonstrates a lot of Barracks wall play and pushing while remaining in a strong defensive position.
http://drop.sc/161199
In this one I'm really sloppy but my super strong army pulls me through.
Also: a very good demonstration of why you should never Blink into tanks!
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 30 2012 23:46 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
If the style is not automatic loss, then it is viable gamestyle. Also people have this misconception that mech only means factory units. Mech means mechanical, and mechanical units are built also in starport. Ok then, I guess you agree with what I said earlier? Protoss and Zerg early game is fine because cannon rush and 6 pool are completely viable vT. As shown by Gaulzi and Habit.
The difference is, that those strategies you mention are all-ins and mech is a playstyle.
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On April 30 2012 23:57 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:46 SupLilSon wrote:On April 30 2012 23:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
If the style is not automatic loss, then it is viable gamestyle. Also people have this misconception that mech only means factory units. Mech means mechanical, and mechanical units are built also in starport. Ok then, I guess you agree with what I said earlier? Protoss and Zerg early game is fine because cannon rush and 6 pool are completely viable vT. As shown by Gaulzi and Habit. The difference is, that those strategies you mention are all-ins and mech is a playstyle.
It's not all in.. you can expo behind either of those openers.
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On May 01 2012 00:00 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 23:57 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 30 2012 23:46 SupLilSon wrote:On April 30 2012 23:36 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
If the style is not automatic loss, then it is viable gamestyle. Also people have this misconception that mech only means factory units. Mech means mechanical, and mechanical units are built also in starport. Ok then, I guess you agree with what I said earlier? Protoss and Zerg early game is fine because cannon rush and 6 pool are completely viable vT. As shown by Gaulzi and Habit. The difference is, that those strategies you mention are all-ins and mech is a playstyle. It's not all in.. you can expo behind either of those openers.
If you expo behind 6pool, then you are doing it wrong. And making expansion itself does not make strategy not-allin.
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On April 30 2012 23:48 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly. Nvm... I cannot even make fun of this. Maybe because you're wrong and you're an idiot. A few of my replays in master league demonstrating at the very least that mech can work at a relatively high level and maxed mech armies can annihilate protoss maxed armies, although i've been adding late game ghosts lately to help deal with immortal/archon heavy compositions. http://drop.sc/155312Multiple maxed situations, crazy Protoss compositions, etc. http://drop.sc/160703This one is a really good one from Daybreak, I actually lose a maxed army but the Protoss can't roll in because he doesn't have any income after I sniped his expo. http://drop.sc/161197Here's one where the Protoss took the 'abuse mobility' route. This was a really fun game. http://drop.sc/155317This one demonstrates a lot of Barracks wall play and pushing while remaining in a strong defensive position. http://drop.sc/161199In this one I'm really sloppy but my super strong army pulls me through. Also: a very good demonstration of why you should never Blink into tanks!
Calm down there mang. People aren't idiots because they disagree with you.
I watched one of your replays and honestly, I don't see how your build can hold a blink stalker opener. This is my problem with mech. It seems to work out relatively fine if you can reach that 200/200 army and not get out positioned. The problem is getting there however. What happens when the Protoss begin to expect mech and actively try to prevent you from getting there? Almost any 1 or 2 base all in will punish your opener. Even in the game I watched, the Protoss would have mangled you with the 3 gate WP if he hadn't rushed it and not used FF or warp in reinforcements.
I'm sorry, you can show me select replays for hours and it's not going to change my stance on mech. My standard in TvP outside of 1 rax FE is 1-1-1 cloackshee into a Thor/marine/banshee/scv all in around 16-18 minutes off of 3 base. Totally not viable, yet it works for me at mid masters because NO ONE expects it.
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You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing.
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On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever.
That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis.
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On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis.
Mech = mechanical
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On May 01 2012 00:13 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis. Mech = mechanical
Despite the abbreviation, mech play doesn't refer to all units other than bio though. They're not dichotomous. Mech = factory units. Bio, mech, air... if that helps. If the Terran transitions from bio to battlecruisers (for some odd reason) he's not transitioning "to mech play".
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On May 01 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:13 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis. Mech = mechanical Despite the abbreviation, mech play doesn't refer to all units other than bio though. They're not dichotomous. Mech = factory units. Bio, mech, air... if that helps. If the Terran transitions from bio to battlecruisers (for some odd reason) he's not transitioning "to mech play".
I dont know where your idea came from, but mech still can mean mechanical. And mechanical units are built in starports aswell.
Also if you are using "bio" for "biological" units, while "mech" only means factory units, there is consistensy issue.
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On May 01 2012 00:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 01 2012 00:13 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis. Mech = mechanical Despite the abbreviation, mech play doesn't refer to all units other than bio though. They're not dichotomous. Mech = factory units. Bio, mech, air... if that helps. If the Terran transitions from bio to battlecruisers (for some odd reason) he's not transitioning "to mech play". I dont know where your idea came from, but mech still can mean mechanical. And mechanical units are built in starports aswell. Also if you are using "bio" for "biological" units, while "mech" only means factory units, there is consistensy issue.
It's an old BW term, and people refuse to see SC2 and BW as different games, so they give SC2 "strategies" the old BW names, (even if it has nothing to do with actual SC2 gameplay).
Mech was played with hardly any air support or if anything, with air transitions, so people call factory strategies Mech, while factory strategies don't exist in SC2, because the "Goliath" was moved to the starport.
Don't fight it, language grows historically and has little to do with logic.
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On May 01 2012 00:13 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis. Mech = mechanical
I just explained to you what the abbreviation meant. You can choose to ignore it and insist you're right, whatever. But it doesn't detract from the fact that's how the community has used the term far before SC2 even came out.
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On May 01 2012 00:18 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:16 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 01 2012 00:13 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On May 01 2012 00:12 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 22:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
About mech versus protos maxed army. The fact is that in head to head battle, while maxed, mech terran army will beat the shit out of protos. Balanced mixture of siege tanks, thors, battlecruisers, banshees, and ravens with supply advantage because terran can free up supply by killing his own SCVs. will beat everything what protos can throw at you. Also simcity will help greatly.
And if you want to be 100% safe from any feedback, you can use those energies by strike cannoning your scvs or yamato cannoning rocks or what ever. That's not what mech is. I don't think anyone is denying that, but mech generally does not include air. Mech is restricted to factory units. Of course you can have other units littered in (say a few ghosts here, a few medivacs for drops, maybe some vikings for antiair), but the general composition is supposed to be factory untis. Mech = mechanical Despite the abbreviation, mech play doesn't refer to all units other than bio though. They're not dichotomous. Mech = factory units. Bio, mech, air... if that helps. If the Terran transitions from bio to battlecruisers (for some odd reason) he's not transitioning "to mech play". I dont know where your idea came from, but mech still can mean mechanical. And mechanical units are built in starports aswell. Also if you are using "bio" for "biological" units, while "mech" only means factory units, there is consistensy issue.
Well then you just need to be clear when you're introducing your new definition of "mech play" because it's established that mech play refers to factory units. You're equivocating the normal definition of mech play being factory units with your own personal definition of mech play being the use of any mechanical unit made from any building (in which, quite frankly, is silly considering there are probably elements of scvs and other bio that technically use machine aspects, and no one says that Terran is going mech when teching up to medivacs or vikings).
Your definition goes against the established community definition, so the onus is on you to clarify.
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On May 01 2012 00:11 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing.
No.. 1 rax FE is considered safe against everything, you just have to react accordingly. It doesn't mean you will hold every early game pressure, but you have the capability to.
From watching Crocodile's game, if he uses that same opener every game, it is highly vulnerable. Most 1-2 base Toss all ins will crush that opener, even if scouted. If mech became a more popular style, Protoss would most definitely be able to read mech before deciding to go blink stalker. Why else would someone open 1 gas, reactor into expo in TvP? If you just wanted just marines itd be much better to go 1 rax FE and not get gas so early.
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I dont know what opener crocodile uses, but in general like I said, there is not a single opener that makes you immune to any kind of aggression. You can lose with any opener.
Mech does not require to use one static opener, thats all I can say. 1Rax expand also is pretty good opener for mech or 111.
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On May 01 2012 00:26 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:11 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing. No.. 1 rax FE is considered safe against everything, you just have to react accordingly. It doesn't mean you will hold every early game pressure, but you have the capability to. From watching Crocodile's game, if he uses that same opener every game, it is highly vulnerable. Most 1-2 base Toss all ins will crush that opener, even if scouted. If mech became a more popular style, Protoss would most definitely be able to read mech before deciding to go blink stalker. Why else would someone open 1 gas, reactor into expo in TvP? If you just wanted just marines itd be much better to go 1 rax FE and not get gas so early.
1 rax FE vs. Baneling bust. Yeah, react accordingly all you want, you're done for.
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On May 01 2012 00:45 MrTng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:26 SupLilSon wrote:On May 01 2012 00:11 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing. No.. 1 rax FE is considered safe against everything, you just have to react accordingly. It doesn't mean you will hold every early game pressure, but you have the capability to. From watching Crocodile's game, if he uses that same opener every game, it is highly vulnerable. Most 1-2 base Toss all ins will crush that opener, even if scouted. If mech became a more popular style, Protoss would most definitely be able to read mech before deciding to go blink stalker. Why else would someone open 1 gas, reactor into expo in TvP? If you just wanted just marines itd be much better to go 1 rax FE and not get gas so early. 1 rax FE vs. Baneling bust. Yeah, react accordingly all you want, you're done for.
You can hold it fine if you scout it.
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On May 01 2012 00:45 MrTng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:26 SupLilSon wrote:On May 01 2012 00:11 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing. No.. 1 rax FE is considered safe against everything, you just have to react accordingly. It doesn't mean you will hold every early game pressure, but you have the capability to. From watching Crocodile's game, if he uses that same opener every game, it is highly vulnerable. Most 1-2 base Toss all ins will crush that opener, even if scouted. If mech became a more popular style, Protoss would most definitely be able to read mech before deciding to go blink stalker. Why else would someone open 1 gas, reactor into expo in TvP? If you just wanted just marines itd be much better to go 1 rax FE and not get gas so early. 1 rax FE vs. Baneling bust. Yeah, react accordingly all you want, you're done for.
Actually its possible to hold baneling bust with 1raxFE. Just build your CC in your wall and some bunkers.
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On May 01 2012 00:45 MrTng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:26 SupLilSon wrote:On May 01 2012 00:11 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
You could say same about any other builds, there is always some openers that make other opening having hard time defending. Its just a nature of this game. Blink stalkers are also something that needs to be decided very early before protos even has idea that terran is going full mech in the game.
There is not a single safe opener in this game that quarantees not losing. No.. 1 rax FE is considered safe against everything, you just have to react accordingly. It doesn't mean you will hold every early game pressure, but you have the capability to. From watching Crocodile's game, if he uses that same opener every game, it is highly vulnerable. Most 1-2 base Toss all ins will crush that opener, even if scouted. If mech became a more popular style, Protoss would most definitely be able to read mech before deciding to go blink stalker. Why else would someone open 1 gas, reactor into expo in TvP? If you just wanted just marines itd be much better to go 1 rax FE and not get gas so early. 1 rax FE vs. Baneling bust. Yeah, react accordingly all you want, you're done for.
i can hold it,if i scout . ..
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EPT
