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On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 14:21 Kharnage wrote:On April 30 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 13:40 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 30 2012 13:25 crocodile wrote:On April 30 2012 12:33 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 30 2012 11:26 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I think we can all agree that the viable terran late game is boring. A terran can have all the best units for the matchup and have all the "special" upgrades (not armour, weapons) within 12 mins and there is not really any reason to switch tech. On the other hand the toss army gets progressively better up until say 20 min with the addition of upgrades/tech like charge/blink/storm or progession of collusi tech into ht tech (or vice versa). I think the only way to fix this is the addition of new units in HotS that terran can gradually add into the army as they move into late game, like toss can do now. In terms of skill, at the highest level, the only thing that bothers me about the toss army is that chargelots really don't require much mirco. Thoughts? By all the best units, you mean bio medivac + viking? Have you tried mixing mechs(tanks, thors) to defend while dropping(bio) in the late game? Have you utilized the abilities of ghosts to the max? (not just emp/snipe, but you need cloak and multi-prone nuke late game) Have you tried air versus toss? Yes. Toss is still imba in the late game. blame yourself for not having enough skill/multitask unless your kr master. Pretty sure most of the Korean Terran pros have complained about TvP lategame being in favor of P. There have been multiple interviews with such sentiment. "Korean masters" or simply mid-high NA/EU masters all seemingly have this issue as well. As a random player I can honestly state I win nearly every PvT that goes lategame, and more often than not lose my TvPs that go lategame. To insinuate Toss isnt' *significantly* easier to play lategame in PvT is a little surprising to me. I thought it was generally accepted. On that same note I lose my PvTs more so to early and midgame timing attacks. Of course, it could partially be due to playstyle, but it's not like my personal experiences are any different from the norm. Plain and simple, PvT is a lot easier lategame. You're using the wrong word. Protoss are Stronger late game. Their units are stronger. It's that simple. This is not a balance issue. Protoss have always been designed to be the strongest end game race. That said, terran tier 3 'seems' to be weak and problematic to transition into as the game enters the end game. I don't see any terrans even attempting this, just sticking with MMMGV and looking for a lucky engagement. I don't know if that is because all tier 3 terran units are trash, or if terran would rather just look for that slip up. If the latter is true then there is a good chance that TvP is almost balanced with protoss having an edge which means 2 equally skilled players the protoss 'should' win. Which word do you think I'm using incorrectly? And yes, it is completely a balance issue, and you're completely making it up that Protoss were designed to be the strongest end game race. They were not like that in BW, and Blizzard has explicitly stated they hoped all 3 races would be viable at all 3 stages. That's an utterly ridiculous assumption. You don't see Terrans attempting it because it doesn't work. You don't think they've tried it in the past? I try it all the time, and have near 100% failure ratio when trying to add any mechanical units to my lategame army composition from the factory. I was messing around in customs with a low masters player the other day, had 7k/3k in the bank and decided to tech up to 3/3 mech lategame, mostly Thor (although I know in reality having healthy siege tanks would be better). I had 9 orbitals, he only had four bases, and I ended up losing the game after the transition. It was amusing, but nothing more than a reminder that Terrans higher tier tech cannot compete well. Mech gets stomped by a lategame Toss army, even in good position. MMMGV is significantly superior at engaging it. The wrong word is easier. Terran are stronger in the early / mid game, protoss are stronger in the late game. That sounds like .... balance... Screw what they 'said', protoss units cost more, are more 'conditional' with less individual utilitity but better synergy. When all the upgrades for both sides are done protoss have more armour and more damage. In a toe to toe fight terran bio armies don't have the muscle to face a protoss robo / gateway army. Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army. Late game armies always require planning and setup, just like protoss do. Protoss were getting destroyed back in the day of 'as many colossus as you can get'. I don't see why you're suprised that when you just get a big pile of thors it doesn't work out. All tier 3 in SC2 are support units and you need to manage a careful balance about how many you get. A great example is NesTea and his 28 Broodlords getting destroyed by a handful of vikings. These days you see good zergs getting between 5 and 8 broodlords max and keeping 16ish corruptors to defend them as well as replace lost BL. Thors are the might of the tank army. they don't die easy and they keep air units from harassing siege tanks.
What about different engagement strategies? Just spitballing and I could be way off, but comparing 2 races toe to toe isn't really considering how they get to that point. Which is equally important in my opinion. Commonly understood is a zerg player can't engage or battle like a Terran or Toss because all their units are really squishy. Maybe Terran needs to further differentiate engagement tactics?
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On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 14:21 Kharnage wrote:On April 30 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 13:40 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 30 2012 13:25 crocodile wrote:On April 30 2012 12:33 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 30 2012 11:26 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I think we can all agree that the viable terran late game is boring. A terran can have all the best units for the matchup and have all the "special" upgrades (not armour, weapons) within 12 mins and there is not really any reason to switch tech. On the other hand the toss army gets progressively better up until say 20 min with the addition of upgrades/tech like charge/blink/storm or progession of collusi tech into ht tech (or vice versa). I think the only way to fix this is the addition of new units in HotS that terran can gradually add into the army as they move into late game, like toss can do now. In terms of skill, at the highest level, the only thing that bothers me about the toss army is that chargelots really don't require much mirco. Thoughts? By all the best units, you mean bio medivac + viking? Have you tried mixing mechs(tanks, thors) to defend while dropping(bio) in the late game? Have you utilized the abilities of ghosts to the max? (not just emp/snipe, but you need cloak and multi-prone nuke late game) Have you tried air versus toss? Yes. Toss is still imba in the late game. blame yourself for not having enough skill/multitask unless your kr master. Pretty sure most of the Korean Terran pros have complained about TvP lategame being in favor of P. There have been multiple interviews with such sentiment. "Korean masters" or simply mid-high NA/EU masters all seemingly have this issue as well. As a random player I can honestly state I win nearly every PvT that goes lategame, and more often than not lose my TvPs that go lategame. To insinuate Toss isnt' *significantly* easier to play lategame in PvT is a little surprising to me. I thought it was generally accepted. On that same note I lose my PvTs more so to early and midgame timing attacks. Of course, it could partially be due to playstyle, but it's not like my personal experiences are any different from the norm. Plain and simple, PvT is a lot easier lategame. You're using the wrong word. Protoss are Stronger late game. Their units are stronger. It's that simple. This is not a balance issue. Protoss have always been designed to be the strongest end game race. That said, terran tier 3 'seems' to be weak and problematic to transition into as the game enters the end game. I don't see any terrans even attempting this, just sticking with MMMGV and looking for a lucky engagement. I don't know if that is because all tier 3 terran units are trash, or if terran would rather just look for that slip up. If the latter is true then there is a good chance that TvP is almost balanced with protoss having an edge which means 2 equally skilled players the protoss 'should' win. Which word do you think I'm using incorrectly? And yes, it is completely a balance issue, and you're completely making it up that Protoss were designed to be the strongest end game race. They were not like that in BW, and Blizzard has explicitly stated they hoped all 3 races would be viable at all 3 stages. That's an utterly ridiculous assumption. You don't see Terrans attempting it because it doesn't work. You don't think they've tried it in the past? I try it all the time, and have near 100% failure ratio when trying to add any mechanical units to my lategame army composition from the factory. I was messing around in customs with a low masters player the other day, had 7k/3k in the bank and decided to tech up to 3/3 mech lategame, mostly Thor (although I know in reality having healthy siege tanks would be better). I had 9 orbitals, he only had four bases, and I ended up losing the game after the transition. It was amusing, but nothing more than a reminder that Terrans higher tier tech cannot compete well. Mech gets stomped by a lategame Toss army, even in good position. MMMGV is significantly superior at engaging it. The wrong word is easier. Terran are stronger in the early / mid game, protoss are stronger in the late game. That sounds like .... balance... Screw what they 'said', protoss units cost more, are more 'conditional' with less individual utilitity but better synergy. When all the upgrades for both sides are done protoss have more armour and more damage. In a toe to toe fight terran bio armies don't have the muscle to face a protoss robo / gateway army. Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army. Late game armies always require planning and setup, just like protoss do. Protoss were getting destroyed back in the day of 'as many colossus as you can get'. I don't see why you're suprised that when you just get a big pile of thors it doesn't work out. All tier 3 in SC2 are support units and you need to manage a careful balance about how many you get. A great example is NesTea and his 28 Broodlords getting destroyed by a handful of vikings. These days you see good zergs getting between 5 and 8 broodlords max and keeping 16ish corruptors to defend them as well as replace lost BL. Thors are the might of the tank army. they don't die easy and they keep air units from harassing siege tanks.
That's not the wrong word, however. I meant easier. They are simply easier to play. You don't have to babysit the units as much, etc. They handle and fight themselves, really.
Also, being stronger at certain points and weaker at certain other points is not balance. It never has been. That is not what really anyone wants in the game either.
It has nothing to do with "costing more" either. Terran has units that "cost more" they simply don't work. You're also wrong about mech. And don't think I didn't have BFH backing them up.
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On April 30 2012 13:40 bbQ4Aiur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 13:25 crocodile wrote:On April 30 2012 12:33 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 30 2012 11:26 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I think we can all agree that the viable terran late game is boring. A terran can have all the best units for the matchup and have all the "special" upgrades (not armour, weapons) within 12 mins and there is not really any reason to switch tech. On the other hand the toss army gets progressively better up until say 20 min with the addition of upgrades/tech like charge/blink/storm or progession of collusi tech into ht tech (or vice versa). I think the only way to fix this is the addition of new units in HotS that terran can gradually add into the army as they move into late game, like toss can do now. In terms of skill, at the highest level, the only thing that bothers me about the toss army is that chargelots really don't require much mirco. Thoughts? By all the best units, you mean bio medivac + viking? Have you tried mixing mechs(tanks, thors) to defend while dropping(bio) in the late game? Have you utilized the abilities of ghosts to the max? (not just emp/snipe, but you need cloak and multi-prone nuke late game) Have you tried air versus toss? Yes. Toss is still imba in the late game. blame yourself for not having enough skill/multitask unless your kr master.
Isn't that the truth haha.
Play like a professional gamer or don't play terran is the general consensus from the community and balance team ><
But seriously, they consider late-game chargelots just fine?
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On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't?
Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
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On April 27 2012 10:44 Holytornados wrote:Micro better? Terran has the higher skill cap for a reason =D Edit: I like the current balance. I'm curious if they are going to do anything about the map imbalance in the foreseeable future.
It's impossible to "micro better" if you live in Australia and play on SEA (latency issues), making TvP lategame nearly impossible.
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On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
Jinro vs MC RO4 GSL.
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On April 30 2012 13:42 bittman wrote:
This thread has become an excuse to balance whine it appears.
If people really have a legitimate discussion I think they'd use the Designated Balance Thread, but most posts here are just balance rage =/
There's a difference between blind whining and legitimately critizing the fact that a lead balance designer has not acknowledged huge issues in a "balance blog."
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On April 30 2012 17:48 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. Jinro vs MC RO4 GSL.
That's more than a year ago
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On April 30 2012 17:57 chaosfreak11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:48 -TesteR- wrote:On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. Jinro vs MC RO4 GSL. That's more than a year ago
Leave it be, he doesn't have anything. I already know he doesn't have anything since I watch every big tournament. There are some attempts at using tanks in early game but pure mech, come on tossie, on which planet do you live?
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On April 30 2012 17:48 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. Jinro vs MC RO4 GSL.
Lol GSL from over a year ago. You kiddin me?
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In Lastshadow's replay pack he goes mech against MC and beats him on KR servers. Mech can work... but it is just far too fucking risky over going standard bio.
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Everytime I watch TvP now a days the problem does not seem to be the tier 3 of protoss. Terran deals well with those. But 3\3(\3) Charge lots in huge numbers WITH the tier 3 behind seems to destroy Terrans. With 3\3\(3) and +2 from Guardian shield, they just refuse to die
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On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight
What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want?
There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech.
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Lets hope the battle hellions will bring some spark into the matchup, they were designed to take out chargelots, no?
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I can foresee MVP using mech in Ro4 tho. He likes the 2 bases tanks rines bunker contain.
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On April 30 2012 18:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing vs Genius, Group Stage GSL Season 1, Dual Sight What's on the line for you with your SWEAR? And what kind of proof do you want? There is a whole thread from a french high master Terran (Lyyna) in which Mech v P is being discussed and you can see replays of various Master League people doing it. Lyyna's style is to max out and slowly take the map and exclusively engage in maxed battles, so at least when he plays it, his Terran Mech is SEVERELY stronger when going toe to toe against a fully upgraded toss army. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003I don't want to argue that Mech is viable no matter what, but Mech builds and (more often) Mech Units are being mixed in. And no matter what you want to use, 3/3 Mech with the right support can take on every Protoss ball head on - if anything, the head on fights are the big strength of Mech.
But how do you force someone into a head on fight without exposing yourself? At this time mech works in some cases probably mostly because people arn't used to play against it.
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Mech TvP is just gimmicky. It doesn't work and can be hard counter so easily unless you catch them off guard. I mean come on, mass feedback, Immortals, stalkers.
I've come across it on my Toss account and its not hard to deal with.
I downloaded LastShadows replay pack to watch and most of it is because the Toss doesn't react properly.
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On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit.
MarineKing beat huk with mech in the spring arena
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May be it is karma. In sc1 there is nothing toss can do to stop 200|200 mech (unless mass carier). So they have to use arbiter to backstab terran by using recall. I feel that the situation is kind reverse in sc2. Now it is terran that can not fight head on. We terran will just have to think of a better way to win than just stim in to the diedball of toss
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On April 30 2012 18:43 Strike_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 17:39 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 14:55 Kharnage wrote:
Terran mech does. Say what you like, but toe to toe fully upgraded, maxed mech armies can stare down the protoss robo army.
Show me a single SINGLE pro replay in the current year where terran mech beats toss. Show me one of yours. You can't? Theorycrafting or not, I SWEAR to you that fully updated terran mech is SEVERELY weaker when toe to toe against fully updated toss army. If you can't provide at least one replay where terran mech beats toss, I call your words pure biased bullshit. MarineKing beat huk with mech in the spring arena
Marineking also beat genius in group play with mech a season or two ago.
Don't remember the game precisely, I think mkp killed tons of probes, got way ahead, and still looked like it would be close, though.
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EPT
