Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 57

On April 30 2012 11:16 jeeeeohn wrote:
David Kim forgot that b.net pivots players around 50% win rates?

Am I missing something, or is he just that clueless?

Also, late game for most matchups need a lot of work, partly because they haven't evolved a lot, mostly because role specific units are dumb and are too good at what they do.

Archon toilet is dumb and unpleasant to look at as a spectator. I can't comment on TvP but to be honest lategame seems skewed in Toss' favor in all matchups.

On April 30 2012 11:26 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I think we can all agree that the viable terran late game is boring. A terran can have all the best units for the matchup and have all the "special" upgrades (not armour, weapons) within 12 mins and there is not really any reason to switch tech. On the other hand the toss army gets progressively better up until say 20 min with the addition of upgrades/tech like charge/blink/storm or progession of collusi tech into ht tech (or vice versa). I think the only way to fix this is the addition of new units in HotS that terran can gradually add into the army as they move into late game, like toss can do now. In terms of skill, at the highest level, the only thing that bothers me about the toss army is that chargelots really don't require much mirco. Thoughts?

On April 30 2012 11:16 jeeeeohn wrote:
David Kim forgot that b.net pivots players around 50% win rates?

Am I missing something, or is he just that clueless?

Also, late game for most matchups need a lot of work, partly because they haven't evolved a lot, mostly because role specific units are dumb and are too good at what they do.

Archon toilet is dumb and unpleasant to look at as a spectator. I can't comment on TvP but to be honest lategame seems skewed in Toss' favor in all matchups.

On April 30 2012 12:41 Holytornados wrote:


This is my feelings on the matter, considering I'm the terran player =P

Edit: I wasn't trying to argue Protoss is harder, just that it isn't stupid easy as you were trying to claim. It requires a skill set just like the other two races.

On April 30 2012 12:33 bbQ4Aiur wrote:

By all the best units, you mean bio medivac + viking?
Have you tried mixing mechs(tanks, thors) to defend while dropping(bio) in the late game?
Have you utilized the abilities of ghosts to the max? (not just emp/snipe, but you need cloak and multi-prone nuke late game)
Have you tried air versus toss?

On April 30 2012 13:25 crocodile wrote:

Yes. Toss is still imba in the late game.

On April 30 2012 13:26 zmansman17 wrote:
I can't believe this.

Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season...

Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level as a whole.

What this means: A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Terrans are on another level, with near perfect micro; something I cannot possess, and yet their representation is still even).

Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP.

An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win.

A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server.

I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options.

On April 30 2012 13:45 bbQ4Aiur wrote:

tbh, consider the number of terran players in master and gm league, i dont think they switch races cause the number remain fairly even with the previous seasons. (protoss has the highest number of players in these 2 leagues, i know)

And i am happy that a terran knows its as hard for us to win/survive thru terrans 9min aggression(while they establish their 3rd, which means it isnt an all-in).

On April 30 2012 13:40 bbQ4Aiur wrote:

blame yourself for not having enough skill/multitask unless your kr master.

On April 30 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:


Pretty sure most of the Korean Terran pros have complained about TvP lategame being in favor of P. There have been multiple interviews with such sentiment. "Korean masters" or simply mid-high NA/EU masters all seemingly have this issue as well.

As a random player I can honestly state I win nearly every PvT that goes lategame, and more often than not lose my TvPs that go lategame. To insinuate Toss isnt' *significantly* easier to play lategame in PvT is a little surprising to me. I thought it was generally accepted.

On that same note I lose my PvTs more so to early and midgame timing attacks. Of course, it could partially be due to playstyle, but it's not like my personal experiences are any different from the norm. Plain and simple, PvT is a lot easier lategame.

On April 30 2012 14:21 Kharnage wrote:


You're using the wrong word.

Protoss are Stronger late game. Their units are stronger. It's that simple. This is not a balance issue. Protoss have always been designed to be the strongest end game race.

That said, terran tier 3 'seems' to be weak and problematic to transition into as the game enters the end game. I don't see any terrans even attempting this, just sticking with MMMGV and looking for a lucky engagement. I don't know if that is because all tier 3 terran units are trash, or if terran would rather just look for that slip up. If the latter is true then there is a good chance that TvP is almost balanced with protoss having an edge which means 2 equally skilled players the protoss 'should' win.

On April 30 2012 14:10 FabledIntegral wrote:


Pretty sure most of the Korean Terran pros have complained about TvP lategame being in favor of P. There have been multiple interviews with such sentiment. "Korean masters" or simply mid-high NA/EU masters all seemingly have this issue as well.

As a random player I can honestly state I win nearly every PvT that goes lategame, and more often than not lose my TvPs that go lategame. To insinuate Toss isnt' *significantly* easier to play lategame in PvT is a little surprising to me. I thought it was generally accepted.

On that same note I lose my PvTs more so to early and midgame timing attacks. Of course, it could partially be due to playstyle, but it's not like my personal experiences are any different from the norm. Plain and simple, PvT is a lot easier lategame.

On April 30 2012 14:34 FabledIntegral wrote:


Which word do you think I'm using incorrectly?

And yes, it is completely a balance issue, and you're completely making it up that Protoss were designed to be the strongest end game race. They were not like that in BW, and Blizzard has explicitly stated they hoped all 3 races would be viable at all 3 stages. That's an utterly ridiculous assumption.

You don't see Terrans attempting it because it doesn't work. You don't think they've tried it in the past? I try it all the time, and have near 100% failure ratio when trying to add any mechanical units to my lategame army composition from the factory. I was messing around in customs with a low masters player the other day, had 7k/3k in the bank and decided to tech up to 3/3 mech lategame, mostly Thor (although I know in reality having healthy siege tanks would be better). I had 9 orbitals, he only had four bases, and I ended up losing the game after the transition. It was amusing, but nothing more than a reminder that Terrans higher tier tech cannot compete well. Mech gets stomped by a lategame Toss army, even in good position. MMMGV is significantly superior at engaging it.