Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 55

crocodile

United States615 Posts

April 29 2012 21:37 GMT

#1081

On April 30 2012 06:17 ooozer wrote:
That wouldnt balance anything. Thors, ravens, BCs, medivacs and banshees would be too strong.

I didn't say balance. I said rework. The matchup is broken atm because Terran has no options in terms of mechanical units and Bio is not very strong. Give terran some options to innovate in a mu that has no changed since the beta, then balance around that.

ooozer

Germany231 Posts

April 29 2012 21:42 GMT

#1082

On April 30 2012 06:37 crocodile wrote:

Show nested quote +

Completly changing a MU? That's what HotS is supossed to do, not a silly patch.

Perseverance

Japan2800 Posts

April 29 2012 21:44 GMT

#1083

On April 30 2012 06:42 ooozer wrote:

Show nested quote +

Completly changing a MU? That's what HotS is supossed to do, not a silly patch.

Yup, when HotS comes out everything will change ><

It's going to be like beta 2010 all over again, but I guess I actually really enjoyed the beta so I'm not too worried.

crocodile

United States615 Posts

April 29 2012 21:53 GMT

#1084

Okay, but that doesn't in any way refute my point.

Sumadin

Denmark588 Posts

April 29 2012 21:55 GMT

#1085

I believe that feedback currently is broken against terran mech but we have to be careful. I don't think it is broken against banshees or medivacs for the simple reason that protoss AA is weak compared to other races(Example: Photon cannons have much less dps than turrets). Mass Banshee could become a problem if we aren't careful.

The idea that i prefer the most is to make feedback not do any damage against massive units(still draining energy). It will help making Thors and Battlecruiser more viable while not twisting too many other things.

fenrysk

United States364 Posts

April 29 2012 21:58 GMT

#1086

The idea that i prefer the most is to make feedback not do any damage against massive units(still draining energy). It will help making Thors and Battlecruiser more viable while not twisting too many other things.

i like this proposed idea, it kind a reminds me of how QXC proposed snipe be nerfed vs massive instead of how the real snipe nerf ended up going down =\

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

April 29 2012 21:58 GMT

#1087

On April 30 2012 06:55 Sumadin wrote:
I believe that feedback currently is broken against terran mech but we have to be careful. I don't think it is broken against banshees or medivacs for the simple reason that protoss AA is weak compared to other races(Example: Photon cannons have much less dps than turrets). Mass Banshee could become a problem if we aren't careful.

The idea that i prefer the most is to make feedback not do any damage against massive units(still draining energy). It will help making Thors and Battlecruiser more viable while not twisting too many other things.

Do you remember that thread on here a while back talking about mass air TvP? Well, it said that you should be spamming cloak/decloak if you aren't going to use it so that the banshees have no energy. Protoss' have been QQing about it a lot, and I myself can say that it's a very frustrating style to play against, but really fun to play. The problem is that all openers are very, very vulnerable to blinkstalker timings. :<

Fencar

United States2694 Posts

April 29 2012 22:02 GMT

#1088

On April 30 2012 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 30 2012 06:23 Shiori wrote:

On April 30 2012 06:15 SupLilSon wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:48 IMoperator wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:42 FabledIntegral wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:22 sperY wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:
These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp.

It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die.

Screen shots without replay isn't gonna work.
How many times we saw 200 vs 200 fights and terran hits good emp's and fight ends with toss losing 2-3 times more supply and the game?
Same goes with storms. If you let your whole army eat storm, you deserve to lose.

Besides GSL, seemingly far, far less when Terran wins those^. Not to mention Toss can warpin around 13 zealots as soon as the battle is over.

Yeah in that rep I won two major battles, yet I couldn't do anything because he just warped in 10 new chargelots.

Engagement at 22 minutes, you lose a whole bunch of Ghosts to Zealots and hit essentially no EMPs. You are down by 50 supply.

What's the point of mass Ghosts if you only EMP temps?

Really?

Right after that 1 A pwnage from Toss, he proceeds to attack into the 3 OCs and have ALL his templar EMPed. Terran barely holds on for his life. Supply is evened out some, yet Protoss is floating 3k while Terran is macroing well and only has 300 floating. Yea, he lost a ton of ghosts in that first engagement in the middle, but he plays it right and backs up. Toss then 1As in, gets every temp EMPed and still comes out ahead. I fail to see where he lost himself this game.

Let's not forget that if you watch from the Protoss perspective, he literally 1As every fight and then stays selected on his HT to hit the money storms. Literally no army control outside of his HT.

Doesn't matter. If you make 20 Ghosts, only EMP Templars (i.e. don't EMP actual units) and then lose them all, you're not getting anywhere. In the very last engagement, we see the Terran player microing his Ghosts backward but inexplicably not EMPing the archons berating them. Just atrocious engagements.

The Toss was maxed, as well, so that's why he was floating.

You're actually just blind if you think that this Terran played well.

Where did I say he played well? I think it's a great testament to what every Terran player here has been saying. Terran is forced to pull off near perfect micro/unit control where the slightest mistake will cost you 50 supply. Protoss barely needs to be looking at the battle to pull off a crushing defeat. He basically just needs to bank on Terran making 1 mistake, which is very likely if you're not Code S Terran. Hmmm... might explain some of the disconnect between Code S Terran (only people having even slight success TvP) and the rest of the world (getting ROFLSTOMPED in TvP).

It's no less punishing than Terran vs Zerg marine/marauder vs ling/bane. The difference is that HT's are AoE banelings with 9 range, which is really annoying. T_T

Ballistixz

United States1269 Posts

April 29 2012 22:04 GMT

#1089

On April 30 2012 06:37 crocodile wrote:

Show nested quote +

your joking right? terran, out of ALL 3 races, has the MOST options to work with. they have so many different paths to go down. bunker rush, hellion harass, banshee harass, 1/1/1, 3 racks, 4 racks, mech, bio mech, pure bio, etc etc...

terran needs nothing else. they litterally have an answer for everything. also u have to consider the fact that u cant change a MU without first looking how it will effect other MUs. that is VERY important. even if u do fix one MU there is a chance that u can break a different MU.

Shiori

3815 Posts

April 29 2012 22:06 GMT

#1090

On April 30 2012 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 30 2012 06:23 Shiori wrote:

On April 30 2012 06:15 SupLilSon wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:48 IMoperator wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:42 FabledIntegral wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:22 sperY wrote:

On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:
These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp.

It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die.

Besides GSL, seemingly far, far less when Terran wins those^. Not to mention Toss can warpin around 13 zealots as soon as the battle is over.

Yeah in that rep I won two major battles, yet I couldn't do anything because he just warped in 10 new chargelots.

Engagement at 22 minutes, you lose a whole bunch of Ghosts to Zealots and hit essentially no EMPs. You are down by 50 supply.

What's the point of mass Ghosts if you only EMP temps?

Using the active ability on your Ghosts is a far cry from playing perfectly.

sieksdekciw

240 Posts

April 29 2012 22:10 GMT

#1091

Guys, even Ganzi complained about toss (JUST now on his stream). What do you think is the reason?

Toss should be nerfed in such a way that in big engagements toss should be forced to actually do something.

SupLilSon

Malaysia4123 Posts

April 29 2012 22:13 GMT

#1092

On April 30 2012 07:10 sieksdekciw wrote:
Guys, even Ganzi complained about toss (JUST now on his stream). What do you think is the reason?

Toss should be nerfed in such a way that in big engagements toss should be forced to actually do something.

Korean Terrans, Korean Protoss, Korean Zerg have all been saying it for a long time. Apparently the Toss here on TL know something they don't.

Shiori

3815 Posts

April 29 2012 22:19 GMT

#1093

On April 30 2012 07:13 SupLilSon wrote:

Show nested quote +

Korean Terrans, Korean Protoss, Korean Zerg have all been saying it for a long time. Apparently the Toss here on TL know something they don't.

Not sure what Protoss players are complaining about Toss being allegedly too strong. And Zerg? What does Zerg have to do with this?

ooozer

Germany231 Posts

April 29 2012 22:21 GMT

#1094

TaeJa complained about toss being OP in the sad Zealot period. MC constantly saying Zergs are easy, while Stephano fears no toss and MKP trolling tosses because he thinks they're easy to beat

Corrosive

Canada3741 Posts

April 29 2012 22:28 GMT

#1095

On April 30 2012 07:10 sieksdekciw wrote:
Guys, even Ganzi complained about toss (JUST now on his stream). What do you think is the reason?

Toss should be nerfed in such a way that in big engagements toss should be forced to actually do something.

Because he lost to one probably?

zezamer

Finland5701 Posts

April 29 2012 22:32 GMT

#1096

Just make mech viable.

Passive macro players will have a viable strat.
Those who enjoy mid game aggression vs clock can play bio.

Matchup becomes much more interesting. I hope they are trying to achieve this in Hots.

TeeTS

Germany2762 Posts

April 29 2012 22:42 GMT

#1097

On April 30 2012 05:22 sperY wrote:

Show nested quote +

now I'm really curious. I want to see 5 high level games of 2012, were terran wins a 200-200 fight so convincingly, that he takes the game right after it. Even 5 high level games were terran really wins those 200-200 engagements would be enough for me. gogo prove your point!

kahaleo

7 Posts

April 29 2012 22:49 GMT

#1098

I know I'm not the best player and shouldn't be thinking about balance, but I honestly think changing the energy system would improve some things. What I mean by that is let T (or any race if they wanted) toggle their energy generation for individual units to decide when they want to generate it or not. We are denying our own abilities to use the units in a different way (banshee for dps rather than cloaked harassment for example). Honestly all it would do is give us more control of our units. It seems silly that we have to EMP our units before going into battle when that EMP should be used on the opposing army. This would take care of feedback and make mech more useful in TvP.

Holytornados

United States1022 Posts

April 29 2012 22:50 GMT

#1099

On April 30 2012 07:32 zezamer wrote:
Just make mech viable.

Passive macro players will have a viable strat.
Those who enjoy mid game aggression vs clock can play bio.

Matchup becomes much more interesting. I hope they are trying to achieve this in Hots.

How exactly do you propose that?

I think everyone would love mech to be be viable, but no one is sure how to do it. It isn't as as simple as "just make mech viable."

CurseDawg

Portugal31 Posts

April 29 2012 22:57 GMT

#1100

Imo make ghosts same cost as high templar, because all 20+ games ends up with Terrans floating on 3k+ gas, or at least a viable gas dump unit. ANd dont say Ravens.

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