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On April 30 2012 07:57 CurseDawg wrote:Imo make ghosts same cost as high templar, because all 20+ games ends up with Terrans floating on 3k+ gas, or at least a viable gas dump unit. ANd dont say Ravens. 
How would changing the cost of ghosts change anything in the balance? I don't see how that could possibly work out as a gas dump.
Or do you mean it as a way to dump gas and conserve minerals for other units? I still don't think that would be beneficial.
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Any thread that mentions balance always falls to the hells of "x race is imba" or "y unit is imba". What a silly discussion.
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On April 30 2012 07:10 sieksdekciw wrote:
Guys, even Ganzi complained about toss (JUST now on his stream). What do you think is the reason?
Toss should be nerfed in such a way that in big engagements toss should be forced to actually do something.
I don't understand what you hope to accomplish. Are you suggesting that protoss should be more micro-intensive in late game engagements? Okay, magic wand is waved, suddenly protoss has a minimum threshold of control to play at the level they used to. Balance is exactly the same...
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
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On April 30 2012 06:37 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 06:23 Shiori wrote:On April 30 2012 06:15 SupLilSon wrote:On April 30 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote:On April 30 2012 05:48 IMoperator wrote:On April 30 2012 05:42 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 30 2012 05:22 sperY wrote:On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oCkGP.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wNaSJ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wHoAZ.jpg) It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die. Screen shots without replay isn't gonna work. How many times we saw 200 vs 200 fights and terran hits good emp's and fight ends with toss losing 2-3 times more supply and the game? Same goes with storms. If you let your whole army eat storm, you deserve to lose. Besides GSL, seemingly far, far less when Terran wins those^. Not to mention Toss can warpin around 13 zealots as soon as the battle is over. Yeah in that rep I won two major battles, yet I couldn't do anything because he just warped in 10 new chargelots. Engagement at 22 minutes, you lose a whole bunch of Ghosts to Zealots and hit essentially no EMPs. You are down by 50 supply. What's the point of mass Ghosts if you only EMP temps? Really? Right after that 1 A pwnage from Toss, he proceeds to attack into the 3 OCs and have ALL his templar EMPed. Terran barely holds on for his life. Supply is evened out some, yet Protoss is floating 3k while Terran is macroing well and only has 300 floating. Yea, he lost a ton of ghosts in that first engagement in the middle, but he plays it right and backs up. Toss then 1As in, gets every temp EMPed and still comes out ahead. I fail to see where he lost himself this game. Let's not forget that if you watch from the Protoss perspective, he literally 1As every fight and then stays selected on his HT to hit the money storms. Literally no army control outside of his HT. Doesn't matter. If you make 20 Ghosts, only EMP Templars (i.e. don't EMP actual units) and then lose them all, you're not getting anywhere. In the very last engagement, we see the Terran player microing his Ghosts backward but inexplicably not EMPing the archons berating them. Just atrocious engagements. The Toss was maxed, as well, so that's why he was floating. You're actually just blind if you think that this Terran played well. Where did I say he played well? I think it's a great testament to what every Terran player here has been saying. Terran is forced to pull off near perfect micro/unit control where the slightest mistake will cost you 50 supply. Protoss barely needs to be looking at the battle to pull off a crushing defeat. He basically just needs to bank on Terran making 1 mistake, which is very likely if you're not Code S Terran. Hmmm... might explain some of the disconnect between Code S Terran (only people having even slight success TvP) and the rest of the world (getting ROFLSTOMPED in TvP).
Through intense study I have figured out exactly where the terran went wrong in this game. Forget army control, AMP or anything else. The secret is below:
Number of barracks until 20 minutes: 8 with add-ons, mostly tech labs.
Number of barracks after 20 minutes: 12 with add-ons.
Number of barracks added when terran was maxed and should be adding infrastructure to remax faster: Zero.
Maximum number of barracks for the entire game: 12 with add-ons
Number of engineering bays despite having the funds to get both upgrades at one time: one
Bank due to being unable to spend his resources: 3000 at points when being sub 150 supply several times.
Number of active units during the games scouting to see what the protoss is doing - none.
Protoss - Number of gateways by the end of the game - 24.
The game had nothing to do with control, it all had to do with macro. The terran failed to ramp up his production to meet his economy, so he was never able to take advantage of any lead he got. Even when he traded well with the protoss, he could never take advantage of that because his macro was so stunted. There where several points where he slapped down the protoss and destroyed ever gas heavy unit, but was never able to keep up the pressure.
Also at 14:07 - observer floating over the terrans army right up to and during the attack. Only killed AFTER the engagement. For the love of god, kill observer. It is way easier to hit clutch force fields and storm if we can see every move your army makes.
So our terran hero did not out play his protoss opponent. He clearly needs to work on his late game macro and getting sufficient production to match his economy. He engaged well and traded pretty evenly with the protoss for most of the game, but the protoss just ground him down with better macro.
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Well, but they still need to keep the mineral price high. HT's cost almost no minerals, because protoss army is already mineral and gas heavy enough (Zealot 100 mins/Marine 50, stalker 125 mins/Marauder 100)
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In my opinion terran's lack of a viable space controlling unit in TvP is what makes the match up seem imbalancedand generally not fun. (barring any micro debates about one side being harder) First lets talk about what space controlling units there are. The main go to unit for terran when you think about space control is the tank, however the cost efficiency of zealots, archons, and immortals(two of which are very standard in a late game composition) makes them less effective in fulfilling their role especially in small numbers. Planetary fortresses are good at space control however the are static so in order to control space in multiple locations you would have to invest a lot of money in them(400 for the cc and an additional 150 minerals and 150 gas). I think that using planetaries a space control is very unexplored and could help alleviate some problems in the match up but it needs to be explored more. The last is the ghost, it can be very good in certain situations ( ie when dealing with templar based armies before colossi) but when the protoss has colossi it becomes harder to use it for space control as colossi have a very large range and can actually kill your ghosts. In addition there is the ghost templar dynamic that comes down to micro.
In contrast protoss has 3 units that are viable for space control; the sentry early game and to a lesser extent in the late game, templars with storm, and colossi. Templars can still be effective if ghost are on the field as long as you spread them and land defensive storms, they also help in zoning out drops as feedback plus canons or a few stalkers can easily deny them. They also zone out vikings as they tend to clump and can easily die to storms empowering you colossi. Colossi are not as good at space control if they do not have the proper support but when combined with sentries they become very powerful especially before a good amount of vikings and ghosts are out. If you go bio these 3 units make it very hard(not impossible but hard none the less) to attack into toss unless they want to. They also limit what harass you can do with drops when they begin to canon up their bases and put templars to feedback medivacs. Unless terran has a huge advantage a combination of these units will keep the terran away giving toss a chance to come back if they lose an engagement as they can use storm and sentries to bide time.(The toss would have to have templar somewhere else gaining energy but it is still likely as they usually leave templars in bases for drop defense).
The lack of space controlling units from one side and great space controlling units from the other makes it very easy for one fight to dictate the rest of the match where one gets a huge advantage in army and wins or protoss trades evenly and bides time while getting their faster reinforcements to.
What should be done to fix this? I don't know it is very hard to figure out but some possible ideas would be to change how feedback works, change how to tank works against toss(but only against toss), make planetaries cheaper, change other mech units to empower the tank. In any case I think a lot of testing still needs to be done in particular with factory units.
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On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential.
Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race.
I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead.
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On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead.
So you're basically insinuating that Protoss isn't challenging enough to become a better SC2 player; that few to no Protoss will ever reach their true potential. Theres absolutely no reason to state this unless you're directly referring to Protoss players.
I really don't care about balance in diamond/low masters.
You understand little of the race, and it's why balance suggestions aren't taken seriously -- especially from you. I don't know how a toss not a-moving (cause toss only a-moves) would have caused Ganzi to win the game he lost, or how it'd fix any "supposed" imbalances.
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On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead.
Well as long as we are being honest, I have always felt that most players who balance whine on TL are not as good as they think they are. That they would rather blame the game and assume that they are better than their opponents, than look to their own play and why they lost.
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On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead.
I think you're totally full of shit
Normally I would point out all the reasons why your post is full of shit, but I think quoting it is enough.
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Did you guys hear? Protoss was OP in BW too! Just an OP race in general really, they should be wiped from the lore for the sake of balance.
+ Show Spoiler +
Balance whining makes me laugh>get angry>become indifferent>laugh (continue into infinity). Guess nothing changes.
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Btw, I know I didn't play perfectly in that replay. I'm far from pro level, and my micro/macro isn't amazing. I would like to see a protoss put up a replay of a lategame situation where they get completely steamrolled, even though they are ahead in army value. The main point I was trying to make with the replay, is that if both players are playing poorly, the protoss SHOULD win.
That guy was diamond level btw, and I'm ~rank 30 masters just for reference. Nothing the guy did in that replay was amazing. He never harassed. He was on less bases most of the game. The most micro he did was a-moving his army and then pulling his templar way back so my ghosts couldn't reach them with emp. The micro requirements for each race in the lategame is so onesided towards the terran that it makes me sad thinking about it. It's up to the terran to micro well in fights. It's up to the terran to harass throughout the midgame so they can't get a good economy. It's up to the terran to react to whatever the protoss is doing. What does the protoss do? They sit on 3/4 bases and try to tech up to both colossus and templar, and the only thing they need to worry about is drops.
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On April 30 2012 08:49 IMoperator wrote:
Btw, I know I didn't play perfectly in that replay. I'm far from pro level, and my micro/macro isn't amazing. I would like to see a protoss put up a replay of a lategame situation where they get completely steamrolled, even though they are ahead in army value. The main point I was trying to make with the replay, is that if both players are playing poorly, the protoss SHOULD win.
That guy was diamond level btw, and I'm ~rank 30 masters just for reference. Nothing the guy did in that replay was amazing. He never harassed. He was on less bases most of the game. The most micro he did was a-moving his army and then pulling his templar way back so my ghosts couldn't reach them with emp. The micro requirements for each race in the lategame is so onesided towards the terran that it makes me sad thinking about it. It's up to the terran to micro well in fights. It's up to the terran to harass throughout the midgame so they can't get a good economy. It's up to the terran to react to whatever the protoss is doing. What does the protoss do? They sit on 3/4 bases and try to tech up to both colossus and templar, and the only thing they need to worry about is drops.
Seriously, go watch the replay yourself..
You dropped 2 times without doing any dmg (besides nexus cancel, which isn't crucial in THAT stage of the game) because the protoss defended them.
I also watched the game from your perspective: You had 2 controll group of units, he had 3. All YOU did was a-move stim and mass emp the same spots without really aiming for something (instead of your focus on HTs) . It wasn't a one sided micro battle from you against an a-moving toss. It was you just being inferior to him, face it. It had nothing to do with your race, but your lack of macro. Don't just watch the grapg with army value and stuff. Look at the replay, push strg + a and watch how even the supply were everytime you fought. And please do not ignore the fact where you were 30 sup down to the toss (90 army vs 120 army) and in the end it was 60-60.
he wasn't on less bases also. He always expanded when you did. Just because you had 3 OC's doesn't mean you were ahead in macro. Like I said, from that point on, you had your 4th poorly saturated, your main was empty, your natural was almsot empty. Only your third was saturated ok. Your 5th and 6th base were only used for mules, which you could'nt/didn't always drop
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On April 30 2012 08:49 IMoperator wrote:
Btw, I know I didn't play perfectly in that replay. I'm far from pro level, and my micro/macro isn't amazing. I would like to see a protoss put up a replay of a lategame situation where they get completely steamrolled, even though they are ahead in army value. The main point I was trying to make with the replay, is that if both players are playing poorly, the protoss SHOULD win.
That guy was diamond level btw, and I'm ~rank 30 masters just for reference. Nothing the guy did in that replay was amazing. He never harassed. He was on less bases most of the game. The most micro he did was a-moving his army and then pulling his templar way back so my ghosts couldn't reach them with emp. The micro requirements for each race in the lategame is so onesided towards the terran that it makes me sad thinking about it. It's up to the terran to micro well in fights. It's up to the terran to harass throughout the midgame so they can't get a good economy. It's up to the terran to react to whatever the protoss is doing. What does the protoss do? They sit on 3/4 bases and try to tech up to both colossus and templar, and the only thing they need to worry about is drops.
You did not lose because of control, as I said above. It was because the protoss simply out macroed you. You sat on 8 raxes for nearly 20 minutes, even though you established your third base and were moving toward a fourth. Neither of you controlled well, I saw several points where templar and ghosts were storming and EMPing each other at point blank range.
Part of the issue you are having with protoss is that you feel like your units need to do more work and be more efficient than they currently are. This is because you simply are not product as many units as the protoss and losing because of it. If you could turn that 3000 minerals you had banked into marines faster, you could have steam rolled the protoss at several points.
Also, be more active on the map. You had no idea where the protoss army was most of the game and the protoss was using observers actively. You will trade even more efficiently y if you are more aware of where the protoss army is.
And for the love of god, kill observers that are over your army. You can't catch a protoss in a favorable position if he knows exactly where your army is. It makes it so much easier to attack in to a terran army and avoid their ghosts/vikings.
Also, thanks for being brave enough to post your replay. It no fun having your play torn apart by people and told everything you did wrong.
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On April 30 2012 08:49 IMoperator wrote:
Btw, I know I didn't play perfectly in that replay. I'm far from pro level, and my micro/macro isn't amazing. I would like to see a protoss put up a replay of a lategame situation where they get completely steamrolled, even though they are ahead in army value. The main point I was trying to make with the replay, is that if both players are playing poorly, the protoss SHOULD win.
That guy was diamond level btw, and I'm ~rank 30 masters just for reference. Nothing the guy did in that replay was amazing. He never harassed. He was on less bases most of the game. The most micro he did was a-moving his army and then pulling his templar way back so my ghosts couldn't reach them with emp. The micro requirements for each race in the lategame is so onesided towards the terran that it makes me sad thinking about it. It's up to the terran to micro well in fights. It's up to the terran to harass throughout the midgame so they can't get a good economy. It's up to the terran to react to whatever the protoss is doing. What does the protoss do? They sit on 3/4 bases and try to tech up to both colossus and templar, and the only thing they need to worry about is drops.
Part of this is the logic about what protoss are doing in the mid game. They are teching to 2 very expensive tech paths while trying to keeep even or ahead in upgrades. They can't afford to harass as well. Terran tech consists of getting medivacs and ghosts, which are unlocked in the first 10 minutes and are not particularly expensive to reach, unlike colossus + range or HT + storm.
If you harass poorly (lose all your units for no real damage) then a protoss player should stay in their base. You just gave them a lead, they don't need to try and get one now.
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is there anything worth reading in this thread?
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On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead.
Well, I am a high diamond Terran player who switched to Protoss and got demoted to low gold.
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I swear, Terran players are the most vocal/complaining players...isn't it natural for T race to get a series of nerfs since they were really OP during the beta stage? I even remember one player during beta saying T and Z were both balanced, and Z players just need to learn to use nydus lol.
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On April 30 2012 10:02 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead. Well, I am a high diamond Terran player who switched to Protoss and got demoted to low gold.
Correlation /= causation. It's more likely due to your unfamiliarity with the race causing you to lose to all sorts of random things than Toss actually being a harder race.
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On April 30 2012 11:05 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 10:02 Holytornados wrote:On April 30 2012 08:17 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 30 2012 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:
Do you think the players that play Protoss are actually bad?
It's not that the players that play a certain race are bad. It's more the thing that if something doesn't challenge you mentally or physically, you will not improve and reach your true potential. Yes, most of the tosses in diamond and master have worse mechanical abilities than their zerg and terran counterparts. If the race were to be balanced to the point where it actually requires the player to do more than a move, all those tosses will become gold/diamond automatically, cause the game so far did not push them enough to improve on their engagements, cause most of the time a move and storm everywhere just works. It's not the players' fault but the simplicity and easiness of the race. I guess my point is, yeah, I believe most of the tosses on ladder below gm and high master are very very bad players and if they played another race they would be plat/dia low masters instead. Well, I am a high diamond Terran player who switched to Protoss and got demoted to low gold. Correlation /= causation. It's more likely due to your unfamiliarity with the race causing you to lose to all sorts of random things than Toss actually being a harder race.
They are most likely equal and our terran hero needs to develop different skill sets to succeed. In the end he will become a better, more well rounded SC2 player when he takes those skills back to playing terran.
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EPT
