EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 54
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:20 KiLLJoy216 wrote: ROFL. Yes, Protoss being soooooooo imbalanced must be the case why he lost. Its not like this guy could have made a mistake. Love how you analyzed that game without watching the replay I don't need to watch the replay. I've played 1000 games that went the same way and left me staring at the post game graphs the same way. I really want to see a Toss show me a game where they had the clear army advantage lategame and lost it. LOL | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
Unless the marines get hit by the edge of the storm, they will die. Which leaves weakened naked marauders to fight against the mass zealot warp in. On April 30 2012 05:22 crocodile wrote: The high templar Feedback ability should not work on units that are not psionic, and armories should be cheaper. That's how you can rework TvP without affecting other matchups. Give Terran their options back. This is a good idea. | ||
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KiLLJoy216
United States71 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:23 SupLilSon wrote: I don't need to watch the replay. I've played 1000 games that went the same way and left me staring at the post game graphs the same way. I really want to see a Toss show me a game where they had the clear army advantage lategame and lost it. LOL You know what we call what you just did? Projection. You are projecting your own problems onto others. Just because you can't seem to beat Protoss doesn't mean this person is experiencing the same issues versus Protoss. EDIT: Oh and by the way, I've seen Protoss lose with the advantage. Colossus over-step their bounds and get sniped by vikings and gg. Or Templars being too far back or getting snipped out of position. | ||
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:22 crocodile wrote: The high templar Feedback ability should not work on units that are not psionic, and armories should be cheaper. That's how you can rework TvP without affecting other matchups. Give Terran their options back. Agree with that. It would help mech so much without touching unit balance. Though i think with the bigger maps of today, Tanks are a bit underwhelming. Maybe faster upgrades would help though. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:22 sperY wrote: Screen shots without replay isn't gonna work. How many times we saw 200 vs 200 fights and terran hits good emp's and fight ends with toss losing 2-3 times more supply and the game? Same goes with storms. If you let your whole army eat storm, you deserve to lose. Besides GSL, seemingly far, far less when Terran wins those^. Not to mention Toss can warpin around 13 zealots as soon as the battle is over. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:42 FabledIntegral wrote: Besides GSL, seemingly far, far less when Terran wins those^. Not to mention Toss can warpin around 13 zealots as soon as the battle is over. Yeah in that rep I won two major battles, yet I couldn't do anything because he just warped in 10 new chargelots. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:48 IMoperator wrote: Yeah in that rep I won two major battles, yet I couldn't do anything because he just warped in 10 new chargelots. Engagement at 22 minutes, you lose a whole bunch of Ghosts to Zealots and hit essentially no EMPs. You are down by 50 supply. What's the point of mass Ghosts if you only EMP temps? | ||
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:37 IMoperator wrote: Here's the replay from that last game (there's two different ones from those pics, first pic was from a game about a week ago that I'll try to find) http://drop.sc/169221 Before uploading your replays, make sure you watched them.. You had almost twice the army size in the midgame, where your opponent was really bad with his macro. You never capitalized on that. Like already said: you lost all of your ghost for nothing in the middle of the map leaving his high templars untouched. When toss pushed your ramp, you hit money emps and gained the army lead. But you stutter stepped to fast, only causing a decrease in dmg while still getting hit. Stop stutter stepping that fast. When you engaged at his 4th, you wasted like a ton of emps on already emp'd units, but still won that engagement. When both of you recovered (the toss had better macro) you had 24 ghost and 15 marauders/17 marines. You didn't move your MM ball, at the end, when eating the storms. You lost to many unused ghost to colossi and zealots aswell. On top of that, your macro was incredibly bad. Mules really saved your ass. Toss was on 72 workers while you only had around 50ish and a ton of OC's. Once your mules were dead, your income dropped ultra low. Toss had 3 mining bases, whereas you almost couldn't afford 2 bases (worker wise). next time don't go for mass OC without worker if you can't use them. In the alst engagement toss came out with almost the same army supply. You just didn't have any money. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:22 crocodile wrote: The high templar Feedback ability should not work on units that are not psionic, and armories should be cheaper. That's how you can rework TvP without affecting other matchups. Give Terran their options back. This is a good idea. I am surprised that I haven't seen anyone mention this before. Leaves unit balance alone and tweaks one spell while adjusting a building cost. I like it. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 05:59 Shiori wrote: Engagement at 22 minutes, you lose a whole bunch of Ghosts to Zealots and hit essentially no EMPs. You are down by 50 supply. What's the point of mass Ghosts if you only EMP temps? Really? Right after that 1 A pwnage from Toss, he proceeds to attack into the 3 OCs and have ALL his templar EMPed. Terran barely holds on for his life. Supply is evened out some, yet Protoss is floating 3k while Terran is macroing well and only has 300 floating. Yea, he lost a ton of ghosts in that first engagement in the middle, but he plays it right and backs up. Toss then 1As in, gets every temp EMPed and still comes out ahead. I fail to see where he lost himself this game. Let's not forget that if you watch from the Protoss perspective, he literally 1As every fight and then stays selected on his HT to hit the money storms. Literally no army control outside of his HT. | ||
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:15 SupLilSon wrote: Really? Right after that 1 A pwnage from Toss, he proceeds to attack into the 3 OCs and have ALL his templar EMPed. Terran barely holds on for his life. Supply is evened out some, yet Protoss is floating 3k while Terran is macroing well and only has 300 floating. Yea, he lost a ton of ghosts in that first engagement in the middle, but he plays it right and backs up. Toss then 1As in, gets every temp EMPed and still comes out ahead. I fail to see where he lost himself this game. Let's not forget that if you watch from the Protoss perspective, he literally 1As every fight and then stays selected on his HT to hit the money storms. Literally no army control outside of his HT. Check the game with a little less terran bias. Both had almost equal average APM. Both had almost equal fight APM. Toss had the better late game eco, since terran only relied on mass OC. He had way to many ghosts and to few marauders. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:19 ooozer wrote: Check the game with a little less terran bias. Both had almost equal average APM. Both had almost equal fight APM. Toss had the better late game eco, since terran only relied on mass OC. He had way to many ghosts and to few marauders. No bias. APM/EPM is irrelevant since Blizzard's scale is completely off and means nothing. Watch through the player cam. Protoss was 1 A every single fight. He didn't even use his Temps in the last fight but it didn't matter. Terran relying on mass OC? That's what you're supposed to do lategame. If Toss let's you establish 7 OCs, you're supposed to let some SCV go in order to get a stronger army. Way too many ghosts? WTF. The optimal lategame comp vs. Toss is Ghosts/Marines. You're supposed to not have many marauder lategame as chargelots/archons make them useless. Please learn something about Terran before trying to pick out people's mistakes. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:15 SupLilSon wrote: Really? Right after that 1 A pwnage from Toss, he proceeds to attack into the 3 OCs and have ALL his templar EMPed. Terran barely holds on for his life. Supply is evened out some, yet Protoss is floating 3k while Terran is macroing well and only has 300 floating. Yea, he lost a ton of ghosts in that first engagement in the middle, but he plays it right and backs up. Toss then 1As in, gets every temp EMPed and still comes out ahead. I fail to see where he lost himself this game. Let's not forget that if you watch from the Protoss perspective, he literally 1As every fight and then stays selected on his HT to hit the money storms. Literally no army control outside of his HT. Doesn't matter. If you make 20 Ghosts, only EMP Templars (i.e. don't EMP actual units) and then lose them all, you're not getting anywhere. In the very last engagement, we see the Terran player microing his Ghosts backward but inexplicably not EMPing the archons berating them. Just atrocious engagements. The Toss was maxed, as well, so that's why he was floating. You're actually just blind if you think that this Terran played well. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:22 SupLilSon wrote: Haha, ya, this guy actually doesn't know anything at all about the matchup and yet talks as if he is an expert.No bias. APM/EPM is irrelevant since Blizzard's scale is completely off and means nothing. Watch through the player cam. Protoss was 1 A every single fight. He didn't even use his Temps in the last fight but it didn't matter. Terran relying on mass OC? That's what you're supposed to do lategame. If Toss let's you establish 7 OCs, you're supposed to let some SCV go in order to get a stronger army. Way too many ghosts? WTF. The optimal lategame comp vs. Toss is Ghosts/Marines. You're supposed to not have many marauder lategame as chargelots/archons make them useless. Please learn something about Terran before trying to pick out people's mistakes. There's no such thing as stutter stepping too fast and losing dmg output because of it, this only happens if you are too slow, if you stutter too fast, you are simply gonna move less than you could, but there's no loss in dmg output, also, terrans should always have less workers than protoss in the late game, that's how every terran pro plays the matchup, relying on multiple ocs, less workers and ergo a bigger army. Also, terrans should refer to Parting vs TheStc g2 on antiga for hilarity value, Stc was ahead on upgrades, 40 supply up, and got stormed to death, but he probably lost because he is a bronzie that sits on storms, right guys? rite!? I wonder when was the last time I saw a terran win behind on upgrades and 40 supply, I know the contrary happens a lot to me and apparently to pro players too. | ||
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ooozer
Germany231 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:22 SupLilSon wrote: No bias. APM/EPM is irrelevant since Blizzard's scale is completely off and means nothing. Watch through the player cam. Protoss was 1 A every single fight. He didn't even use his Temps in the last fight but it didn't matter. Terran relying on mass OC? That's what you're supposed to do lategame. If Toss let's you establish 7 OCs, you're supposed to let some SCV go in order to get a stronger army. Way too many ghosts? WTF. The optimal lategame comp vs. Toss is Ghosts/Marines. You're supposed to not have many marauder lategame as chargelots/archons make them useless. Please learn something about Terran before trying to pick out people's mistakes. He played bad, period. Your terran bias can't change that. Massing OC's to be completly depended on MULEs without capitalizing on it deserves to get punished. He lost, because he had no income. Terran also had like 2 control group of units. All he did was stim and EMP, micro much? Toss had 3 groups, so at least he faked some better micro. After killing all of his ghost toss pushed with 120 army supply into 90 terran supply. Money emp hit, toss drops to 66 army supply, terran aswell. Which basically means toss lost twice the supply without aoe. Cost efficient, eh? Go watch the replay and enjoy worse players complaining about balanced, when all they gotta do is play better. There's no such thing as stutter stepping too fast and losing dmg output because of it, this only happens if you are too slow, if you stutter too fast, you are simply gonna move less than you could, but there's no loss in dmg output, also, terrans should always have less workers than protoss in the late game, that's how every terran pro plays the matchup, relying on multiple ocs, less workers and ergo a bigger army My bad. If you stutter to fast, you get NOTHING from that. is that how terrans describe their superior micro? Mass a-click back and forth like the pros, thinking they micro like a boss? Stutter stepping and STILL getting hit by non charging zealots, yeah that's what I call good terran micro, sure. Yeah we know toss imba, but why not at leats giving it a try? | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 30 2012 06:23 Shiori wrote: Doesn't matter. If you make 20 Ghosts, only EMP Templars (i.e. don't EMP actual units) and then lose them all, you're not getting anywhere. In the very last engagement, we see the Terran player microing his Ghosts backward but inexplicably not EMPing the archons berating them. Just atrocious engagements. The Toss was maxed, as well, so that's why he was floating. You're actually just blind if you think that this Terran played well. Where did I say he played well? I think it's a great testament to what every Terran player here has been saying. Terran is forced to pull off near perfect micro/unit control where the slightest mistake will cost you 50 supply. Protoss barely needs to be looking at the battle to pull off a crushing defeat. He basically just needs to bank on Terran making 1 mistake, which is very likely if you're not Code S Terran. Hmmm... might explain some of the disconnect between Code S Terran (only people having even slight success TvP) and the rest of the world (getting ROFLSTOMPED in TvP). | ||
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