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On April 29 2012 22:25 Lagcraft wrote:
Did you just say medivacs were a healing storm? Seriously dude?
The fact is, protoss can continue to pump out collossi, high templar, cheap zealots for buffering, and archons late game. Three of these units do massive splash damage and three of them share upgrades. If you don't get the perfect engagement against a protoss and stop their production facilities via pylons or what have you, you lose due to faster renforcement of better units.
At least one of our high-tier units (Thor, Battlecruiser) needs to have it's energy taken away and replaced with a cooldown. It's not a fair playing field when the high templar counters every high-tier unit we have.
And that's exactly what I was saying.
If your protoss adversaries can "continue to pump out colossi, high templar, cheap zealots and archons" late game it means you haven't done any kind of proper harassing. Take down their probes, snipe a nexus, disrupt their economy or production and you'll see that P has a much harder time keeping up pumping out units that cost 150-200 gas each.
If you just go 200v200 then it's a matter of who gets the better storm/emp, there's really not much to argue about that (i already say i dislike it). The thor/battlecruiser argument is silly. P use a lot of high tier units because withtout them their unit composition would be completely wrecked by a mere bioball, it's not an advantage we have, we *have* to get those expensive shit in the field because our (already expensive) gateway units alone can't do jack shit to marine, marauders and medivacs
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On April 29 2012 22:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:18 PureBalls wrote:On April 29 2012 21:26 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 29 2012 21:03 Creager wrote:
My main concern to the current meta game still is, that I find it uncomforting to rely solely on early timing attacks or all-ins (like 1-1-1 or 3 rax stim timing e.g.). To point out again: It's frustrating to watch replays and actually see how the Protoss a-moves while you are trying to EMP, get your vikings into position, spread your army and dodge storms while kiting immortalots (little pun ;>) and he still wins... Sure, in my case this is concerning the lower leagues (still plat) in the first place.
Masters T here.... Someone who doesnt see protoss micro when watching Parting and other top protoss players play, should be in plat, instead of masters. I often wonder how these players got to masters and if it was through some abusive non-sense that is now failing them because they have reached players of a sufficient skill level to stop it.
non-constructive garbage...
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I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential
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On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential
So to sum up your post: Terran sucks, Protoss is OP?
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On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential
Please, don't act like masters makes you automatically an expert. Anyone with previous RTS experience and who spends 100+games on sc2 can get masters.
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On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential
Your first line doesn't make much sense after reading the rest of your post.
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On April 29 2012 22:32 RehnFreemark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:25 Lagcraft wrote:
Did you just say medivacs were a healing storm? Seriously dude?
The fact is, protoss can continue to pump out collossi, high templar, cheap zealots for buffering, and archons late game. Three of these units do massive splash damage and three of them share upgrades. If you don't get the perfect engagement against a protoss and stop their production facilities via pylons or what have you, you lose due to faster renforcement of better units.
At least one of our high-tier units (Thor, Battlecruiser) needs to have it's energy taken away and replaced with a cooldown. It's not a fair playing field when the high templar counters every high-tier unit we have.
And that's exactly what I was saying. If your protoss adversaries can "continue to pump out colossi, high templar, cheap zealots and archons" late game it means you haven't done any kind of proper harassing. Take down their probes, snipe a nexus, disrupt their economy or production and you'll see that P has a much harder time keeping up pumping out units that cost 150-200 gas each. If you just go 200v200 then it's a matter of who gets the better storm/emp, there's really not much to argue about that (i already say i dislike it). The thor/battlecruiser argument is silly. P use a lot of high tier units because withtout them their unit composition would be completely wrecked by a mere bioball, it's not an advantage we have, we *have* to get those expensive shit in the field because our (already expensive) gateway units alone can't do jack shit to marine, marauders and medivacs
Exactly. The truth is, Protoss has the stronger army in the late game, but Terran has a HUGE timing window in the early-mid game which they can use to keep Protoss down, and even kick them out. If you haven't watched MKP play TvP yet, I suggest you go here:
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/86203-g1-marineking-vs-oz-mlg-prizefights-1
and watch the series that he plays against Oz. My best matchup right now is TvP, and I owe it all to mimicking MKP play. I'm obviously a n00b being in Diamond league, and so I can't pull off the incredible macro/micro like MKP can, but just by hitting similar timing attacks and playing with the same overall strategy/mentality, I crush Masters level Protoss on a daily basis with no trouble.
Protoss is not OP - they just are designed to be good late game, while Terran is designed to be good early game. You can't play Terran the same way a Protoss plays Protoss and expect to win - it's a different race. gl hf
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On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential
This is perfectly said.
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On April 29 2012 22:32 RehnFreemark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:25 Lagcraft wrote:
Did you just say medivacs were a healing storm? Seriously dude?
The fact is, protoss can continue to pump out collossi, high templar, cheap zealots for buffering, and archons late game. Three of these units do massive splash damage and three of them share upgrades. If you don't get the perfect engagement against a protoss and stop their production facilities via pylons or what have you, you lose due to faster renforcement of better units.
At least one of our high-tier units (Thor, Battlecruiser) needs to have it's energy taken away and replaced with a cooldown. It's not a fair playing field when the high templar counters every high-tier unit we have.
And that's exactly what I was saying. If your protoss adversaries can "continue to pump out colossi, high templar, cheap zealots and archons" late game it means you haven't done any kind of proper harassing. Take down their probes, snipe a nexus, disrupt their economy or production and you'll see that P has a much harder time keeping up pumping out units that cost 150-200 gas each. If you just go 200v200 then it's a matter of who gets the better storm/emp, there's really not much to argue about that (i already say i dislike it). The thor/battlecruiser argument is silly. P use a lot of high tier units because withtout them their unit composition would be completely wrecked by a mere bioball, it's not an advantage we have, we *have* to get those expensive shit in the field because our (already expensive) gateway units alone can't do jack shit to marine, marauders and medivacs
So what does terran produce if we are up a base and the protoss hasn't done any harassing? Oh yea nothing... MMMVG. This is exactly why the game makes no sense, a T can't just sit and make a huge late game force WE HAVE to harass.
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On April 29 2012 22:32 RehnFreemark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:25 Lagcraft wrote:
Did you just say medivacs were a healing storm? Seriously dude?
The fact is, protoss can continue to pump out collossi, high templar, cheap zealots for buffering, and archons late game. Three of these units do massive splash damage and three of them share upgrades. If you don't get the perfect engagement against a protoss and stop their production facilities via pylons or what have you, you lose due to faster renforcement of better units.
At least one of our high-tier units (Thor, Battlecruiser) needs to have it's energy taken away and replaced with a cooldown. It's not a fair playing field when the high templar counters every high-tier unit we have.
And that's exactly what I was saying. If your protoss adversaries can "continue to pump out colossi, high templar, cheap zealots and archons" late game it means you haven't done any kind of proper harassing. Take down their probes, snipe a nexus, disrupt their economy or production and you'll see that P has a much harder time keeping up pumping out units that cost 150-200 gas each. If you just go 200v200 then it's a matter of who gets the better storm/emp, there's really not much to argue about that (i already say i dislike it). The thor/battlecruiser argument is silly. P use a lot of high tier units because withtout them their unit composition would be completely wrecked by a mere bioball, it's not an advantage we have, we *have* to get those expensive shit in the field because our (already expensive) gateway units alone can't do jack shit to marine, marauders and medivacs
This is one of the worst arguments imo. "If you haven't prevented them from getting this, you've done something wrong."
How is that possible to be true? If the protoss intercepted your harassments, traded evenly, and had similar economies through skirmishes through the game, why should Terran suddenly be at a disadvantage?
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Austria24422 Posts
On April 30 2012 04:43 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential This is perfectly said.
LMAO, no it's not. He's contradicting himself with his first line. If anything, that's impressively poorly said.
His argument is basically: Terran players are the best, protoss players are bad. Which, as we should know by now, is nonsense. I'm just gonna quote Artosis on this again and again - "The best players are playing protoss at the moment."
Protoss has to be easier to micro to some degree because you will need to reinforce during a battle which means you have to move your screen away from a battle to warp in stuff.
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On April 30 2012 01:25 aintthatfunny wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 01:17 Strykerz wrote:
I hate how these balance discussions always come down to my race sucks yours is op. I got to masters league with all three races. Im in master league in korea as well. Protoss is by far the silliest late game race. The reason that protoss can't lock down tournaments is because david said it himself. All protoss did was 1 or 2 base since beta. Zerg strains multi tasking the longer the game goes on. The top Terran players (mkp polt mvp etc) are on a totally different skill level. Its not that the race is imbalanced its that they can micro their entire army efficiently while still maintaining flawless macro. If protoss players are barely grasping any game concepts recently. Like how *huge flanking hts are* when we see parting play. The game may appear relatively balanced but once protoss learns how to take a third. And god forbid a fourth. Then you'll notice its not Terran being good. Its just Terran using what little we can to full potential Please, don't act like masters makes you automatically an expert. Anyone with previous RTS experience and who spends 100+games on sc2 can get masters.
Where's your masters account then buddy? I had a decent amount of RTS experience (hardly any competitive outside DOW tho) and it look me a lot more than 100 games to get to masters. Also he said he's masters on KR, which is actually something to be proud of.
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On April 30 2012 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 22:32 RehnFreemark wrote:On April 29 2012 22:25 Lagcraft wrote:
Did you just say medivacs were a healing storm? Seriously dude?
The fact is, protoss can continue to pump out collossi, high templar, cheap zealots for buffering, and archons late game. Three of these units do massive splash damage and three of them share upgrades. If you don't get the perfect engagement against a protoss and stop their production facilities via pylons or what have you, you lose due to faster renforcement of better units.
At least one of our high-tier units (Thor, Battlecruiser) needs to have it's energy taken away and replaced with a cooldown. It's not a fair playing field when the high templar counters every high-tier unit we have.
And that's exactly what I was saying. If your protoss adversaries can "continue to pump out colossi, high templar, cheap zealots and archons" late game it means you haven't done any kind of proper harassing. Take down their probes, snipe a nexus, disrupt their economy or production and you'll see that P has a much harder time keeping up pumping out units that cost 150-200 gas each. If you just go 200v200 then it's a matter of who gets the better storm/emp, there's really not much to argue about that (i already say i dislike it). The thor/battlecruiser argument is silly. P use a lot of high tier units because withtout them their unit composition would be completely wrecked by a mere bioball, it's not an advantage we have, we *have* to get those expensive shit in the field because our (already expensive) gateway units alone can't do jack shit to marine, marauders and medivacs This is one of the worst arguments imo. "If you haven't prevented them from getting this, you've done something wrong." How is that possible to be true? If the protoss intercepted your harassments, traded evenly, and had similar economies through skirmishes through the game, why should Terran suddenly be at a disadvantage?
In theory, that argument works on the assumption that terran can, in expectation, trade cost effectively with harass given 2 players of equal skill. So if the terran only trades evenly, they haven't fully realized their potential gains.
So that assumption is what should be discussed here. With 2 players of equal skill, can the terran on the average trade cost effectively with the protoss via harass or other timings?
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Stop whinning about only Protoss being imbalanced late game you Terrans. You want Protoss fixed late game, you have to fix Terran imbalance early/mid game.
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On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oCkGP.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wNaSJ.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wHoAZ.jpg) It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die.
Without context that doesn't really mean much... Bad engagement could be the reason you lost the game. Need the replay.
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On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp. It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die.
Yea, that's pretty much how every TvP goes. You will be winning in Resource collection rate as well as Army value but you still end up being stomped because you need like 3 Terran armies to kill 1 Protoss army. Not to mention you need to have immaculate control of these 3 armies to kill 1 deathball.
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On April 30 2012 05:18 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp. It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die. Yea, that's pretty much how every TvP goes. You will be winning in Resource collection rate as well as Army value but you still end up being stomped because you need like 3 Terran armies to kill 1 Protoss army. Not to mention you need to have immaculate control of these 3 armies to kill 1 deathball.
ROFL. Yes, Protoss being soooooooo imbalanced must be the case why he lost. Its not like this guy could have made a mistake. Love how you analyzed that game without watching the replay
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Or carpet EMP every unit and hope you didn't miss a single templar.
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On April 30 2012 05:14 IMoperator wrote:These screenshots are from some of my recent TvP games. I'm sure many other terrans have had this happen to them in lategame tvp. It's so damn frustrating to have a better army value than the other guy, yet your army is far more fragile so when the battle comes, if you don't micro perfectly you die.
Screen shots without replay isn't gonna work.
How many times we saw 200 vs 200 fights and terran hits good emp's and fight ends with toss losing 2-3 times more supply and the game?
Same goes with storms. If you let your whole army eat storm, you deserve to lose.
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EPT
