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On March 30 2012 18:22 Blackrobe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:17 mrtomjones wrote:On March 30 2012 17:58 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 17:48 AegiS_ wrote:On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote:
you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams. "your little teams"..? these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol. "Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol." Is this a joke? I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up. uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want. The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation. I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
I read what you typed and took it the way it was typed. Not only were you an ass to that guy for no reason, but you implied that you watching a league with only BW players meant that the majority of others would. If you didn't mean that then you should be more careful with how you word your sentences.
But yes I am happy that everyone seems to want them to work together  If kespa chose not to I think Gom could really get some serious internet support behind them. If reddit pitchforks can hammer Orb or whatever drama is happening that hard, imagine what they could do to them
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On March 30 2012 18:22 Blackrobe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:17 mrtomjones wrote:On March 30 2012 17:58 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 17:48 AegiS_ wrote:On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote:
you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams. "your little teams"..? these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol. "Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol." Is this a joke? I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up. uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want. The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation. I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes.
Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
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On March 30 2012 18:30 naux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:22 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 18:17 mrtomjones wrote:On March 30 2012 17:58 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 17:48 AegiS_ wrote:On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote:
you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams. "your little teams"..? these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol. "Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol." Is this a joke? I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up. uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want. The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation. I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes. Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated.
You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right?
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On March 30 2012 18:39 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:30 naux wrote:On March 30 2012 18:22 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 18:17 mrtomjones wrote:On March 30 2012 17:58 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 17:48 AegiS_ wrote:On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote:
you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams. "your little teams"..? these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol. "Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol." Is this a joke? I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up. uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want. The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation. I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes. Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated. You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right?
He meant the fans. We have way more fans outside of korea than inside.
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FXOBoSs just posted a really interesting blog on this matter.
http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/post/20162736523/kespa-and-korea
+ Show Spoiler +KESPA and Korea
OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again.
Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations.
Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work?
We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course).
As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday.
Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs
Some good insights in there.
edit: sniped >_<
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On March 30 2012 18:43 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:39 Euronyme wrote:On March 30 2012 18:30 naux wrote:On March 30 2012 18:22 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 18:17 mrtomjones wrote:On March 30 2012 17:58 Blackrobe wrote:On March 30 2012 17:48 AegiS_ wrote:On March 30 2012 16:58 insanet wrote:
you better bring an army and nukes if you want Kespa to even care about you and your little teams. "your little teams"..? these teams include the absolute best players in the SC2 pro-scene. if they (KeSPA) don't work with, or try to bully around, the e-sports federation then they won't get the best talent in SC2. good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol. "Good luck running an sc2 tournament without DRG, MKP, Nestea, MVP etc lolol." Is this a joke? I would watch a SC2 league with ex-BW players in a heartbeat. Grow up. uhhh Grow up to his comment dude? Look in the mirror. SC2 has a huge fan base with many of them coming only to SC2 and not through BW. Those people want to see the players they love(MMA/DRG/MKP/MC) etc. Would they watch Jaedong/Bisu/Flash play? Probably. But I very much doubt the interest level in the rest of the BW players would be nearly as high and watching subpar play which is what it would be for a good while wouldn't be what a lot of people would want. The single best way for this to happen for ESports is for them to get along and work together and have a shared player base and cooperation. I want the two scenes to work together and create a wonderful new era. I don't think you thought about what I typed, I am not against a confluence of the scenes. Alot of people dont understand that foreigners ARE SC2, i never watched SC:BW or cared about it untill SC2 came out and so did alot of other people. I could care less about this "Flash" or "Jaedong" why? because i started watching SC2 with all the MVP, NesTea, MC, MKP'ssssss so i have no idea who or really care about the SC1 pros. Only thing i want to truly see is these so called Brood War pros come into SC2 and try to own the SC2 regulars and just get dominated. You do realize that none of the people you just cited are foreigners right? He meant the fans. We have way more fans outside of korea than inside.
Oh ok. Well then yeah, for sure.
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On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 17:03 Integra wrote:On March 30 2012 16:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:Could someone with a good grasp on esports history shed some light on KeSPA? Why are they so controversial? The only good word I have to read on is from John the Translator shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160353¤tpage=15#283His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible. KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed. KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit". KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea. Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP. After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations. The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not. Source please because I disagree with a lot of what was written here. To the best of my knowledge: - The teams are represented on the board of KeSPA, specifically, each team has a representative. Last I remember, the coach of SKT was the president of KeSPA.
- KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
- KeSPA was very much just a governing body until 2007. Up until then its influence extended to creating rulesets for the progaming scene. This included the establishment of progamer licensees and the listing of official tournament results on their page. In particular, it had a role in managing the joint proleague between OGN and MBC.
- KeSPA was first really put into a negative light in 2007 when it asserted its rights over the broadcast of proleague and sold the rights to IEG (then sponsoring the team eSTRO and formerly ran sc4all). MBC/OGN were outraged at this and many fans hated KeSPA as a result. The fiasco shook the scene to its core, but eventually MBC/OGN agreed to pay broadcast fees to IEG and proleague went on.
- KeSPA often comes under the spotlight when a rule is enforced that causes an unpopular result. Rules that cause problems are often discussed afterwards and rectified if necessary. I.e. the Backho ziziyO incident which said gave way to the rule that the only official form of surrender was gg.
- KeSPA has not stop players from receiving salaries; those are negotiated between teams and players which KeSPA has no influence over. However, KeSPA will assist teams to find new sponsors (or support them if they don't have them, i.e. team 8) and introduced the free agency system for players.
- KeSPA has not limited the participation of foreigners in korean leagues. The lack of participation was a result of foreigners sucking. Indeed, KeSPA went as far as to establish a bypass rule for teams which allowed them give 2 players per year a progaming license without passing through courage. This was brought into effect when SKT had PJ and LX (two chinese players) and is often seen as giving SKT a way to give them progamer status. Idra earned his progamer status through this system as well.
- KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
At least to your last point I can give you a quote from John aka Junkka (Translater of GSL):"... They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic ..."
Which tells quite the opposite to what you said. Maybe you lack the insight of the korean scene, or maybe he is biased, but it just fits into other things, done and enforced by KeSPA.
The most thing that bothers me about KeSPA besides their harsch enforcing of rules, are pro licenses.
Who needs that bullshit? If someone has the the skill and the passion to become pro gamer, he should be allowed to be taken under contract by a team. if they want all pro players to be registered, fine, then at least give those licenses out to everyone. We don't need additional blockades, that hinder upcoming talents.
I personally will boycott all KeSPA run tournaments if they don't find an acceptable agreement with the current SC2 teams, and I hope most people will do so too, because if this organisation goes on with their doing, they are a big thread to the worldwilde growth of esport.
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On March 30 2012 18:45 eviltomahawk wrote:FXOBoSs just posted a really interesting blog on this matter. http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/post/20162736523/kespa-and-korea+ Show Spoiler +KESPA and Korea
OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again.
Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations.
Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work?
We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course).
As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday.
Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs Some good insights in there. edit: sniped >_<
Hmmm I hope FXOBoss is able to tell Kespa/Whoever needs to be told how important the foreign scene is to the future of SC2. I doubt my interest would be nearly as high without people like Huk fighting it out in tournaments. The only time I will guaranteed stay up to watch GSL at night is when he plays or a couple other of my favorites play(Idra/Jinro/Maybe Naniwa this GSL)
Ignoring such a huge viewer base's needs would as he said limit and perhaps kill all growth for SC2 :/ Killing the business model that could emerge.
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On March 30 2012 18:50 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote:On March 30 2012 17:03 Integra wrote:On March 30 2012 16:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:Could someone with a good grasp on esports history shed some light on KeSPA? Why are they so controversial? The only good word I have to read on is from John the Translator shown here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160353¤tpage=15#283His view on KeSPA isn't very positive and it's starting to influence mine, too. I would like to see someone write something to the contrary, if possible. KeSPA was formed during the IT-boom of Southkorea where online gaming such as Starcraft became incredibly popular, riding the warpspeed of how fast online gaming and IT grew the Ministry of Culture of Sports and Tourism in 2000 declared to form a governed body whose official goal was to make e-Sports an official sporting event, and to solidify the commercial position of e-Sports in all sectors. And thus KeSPA was formed. KeSPA which consists of some of the biggest IT related companies in korea, primary role was to deal with the broadcasting of e-Sports, the formation of new events, and the conditions in which progamers work, as well as encourage the playing of video games by the general population. The decline of KeSPA's popularity started when it showed sign of "monopoly" and "abuse by power". Some of these signs included Disqualifying players for misspelling or typing wrong things when they wanted to pause during a game. Referee decisions that were viewed as "bullshit". KeSPA was also known for giving bad contract deals for the player. The players very rarely got the money they deserved for the amount of effort they put into the game. The final "straw" for most people where when KeSPA Forced GomTV to shut down it's sc1 broadcasting by forcing the SC1 players not to attend it, if they did they would be frowned down upon by KeSPA, which at that time were "esports" in Korea. Some time later it surfaced that KeSPA had ignored Blizzard and hadn't given them any profit of the business it had generated with Starcraft1. KeSPA refused to recognize Blizzards IP right for the game, if they did it meant they had to start paying Blizzard since they were using their game. around 2010 after serveal failed attempts of discussing Blizzard decided to sue KeSPA and bring them to court regarding the IP. After allot of drama the dispute ended In May 2011 when KeSPA finally recognized the IP rights of Blizzard and had made a successful negotiations. The aftermath of this is that some people are angry at KeSPA while other are not. Source please because I disagree with a lot of what was written here. To the best of my knowledge: - The teams are represented on the board of KeSPA, specifically, each team has a representative. Last I remember, the coach of SKT was the president of KeSPA.
- KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
- KeSPA was very much just a governing body until 2007. Up until then its influence extended to creating rulesets for the progaming scene. This included the establishment of progamer licensees and the listing of official tournament results on their page. In particular, it had a role in managing the joint proleague between OGN and MBC.
- KeSPA was first really put into a negative light in 2007 when it asserted its rights over the broadcast of proleague and sold the rights to IEG (then sponsoring the team eSTRO and formerly ran sc4all). MBC/OGN were outraged at this and many fans hated KeSPA as a result. The fiasco shook the scene to its core, but eventually MBC/OGN agreed to pay broadcast fees to IEG and proleague went on.
- KeSPA often comes under the spotlight when a rule is enforced that causes an unpopular result. Rules that cause problems are often discussed afterwards and rectified if necessary. I.e. the Backho ziziyO incident which said gave way to the rule that the only official form of surrender was gg.
- KeSPA has not stop players from receiving salaries; those are negotiated between teams and players which KeSPA has no influence over. However, KeSPA will assist teams to find new sponsors (or support them if they don't have them, i.e. team 8) and introduced the free agency system for players.
- KeSPA has not limited the participation of foreigners in korean leagues. The lack of participation was a result of foreigners sucking. Indeed, KeSPA went as far as to establish a bypass rule for teams which allowed them give 2 players per year a progaming license without passing through courage. This was brought into effect when SKT had PJ and LX (two chinese players) and is often seen as giving SKT a way to give them progamer status. Idra earned his progamer status through this system as well.
- KeSPA did not stop teams from competing in gomtv classic. They didn't officially recognise it, however, the teams that boycotted GSL had a reason for doing so. OGN/MBC were broadcast stations, eSTRO was sponsored by IEG and SKT held the presidents chair at KeSPA. Teams were simply overworked by this point and there wasn't room in the market for another tournament, leading to the classic's demise.
At least to your last point I can give you a quote from John aka Junkka (Translater of GSL):"... They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license i they play in GOM Classic ..." Which tells quite the opposite to what you said. Maybe you lack the insight of the korean scene, or maybe he is biased, but it just fits into other things, done and enforced by KeSPA. The most thing that bothers me about KeSPA besides their harsch enforcing of rules, are pro licenses. Who needs that bullshit? If someone has the the skill and the passion to become pro gamer, he should be allowed to be taken under contract by a team. if they want all pro players to be registered, fine, then at least give those licenses out to everyone. We don't need additional blockades, that hinder upcoming talents. I personally will boycott all KeSPA run tournaments if they don't find an acceptable agreement with the current SC2 teams, and I hope most people will do so too, because if this organisation goes on with their doing, they are a big thread to the worldwilde growth of esport.
The teams can give such a player a license. so i dont see whats the problem?
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Eh, Kespa.... Well, I doubt they even CAN have such a huge influence over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. With so many high profile foreign events the korean players don't necessarily have to play in korea to show how good they are and earn money. And we've already seen quite a few players join foreign teams too! And I can't imagine how kespa could make it impossible to train in korea... I mean, they can just shut down team houses that aren't part of their "thing", right?
I hope this organization can do what they've set out to do, and that kespa won't try screw everyone^^
Don't screw this up guys!! :D
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Well Blizzard, it might be time to wave your "Game Creator" dick around if this were to happen.
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On March 30 2012 18:53 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 18:45 eviltomahawk wrote:FXOBoSs just posted a really interesting blog on this matter. http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/post/20162736523/kespa-and-korea+ Show Spoiler +KESPA and Korea
OK OK OK I give in.. I will blog again.
Why did I stop? Well, people keep whining at me because the truth hurts them. And they whine in a way that can potentially effect my organisation. However!
The current topic will effect the future of starcraft 2. I don’t care who you are, or what you do, but if you are a foreigner in sc2 you should start to think about the future…properly.
Firstly, I am going to describe a few things about e-sports and e-sports organisations.
Whilst there are a few people out there spreading the word of e-sports to the broader community (I am not one of them, other than our FXOpen clients), the majority of the e-sports communities are EXTREMELY insular. They promote the product internally only and only care about the effects of their insular communities.
This can be seen in many many cases of foreign e-sports, and also can be seen in Korea.
Now, here is the fine print before I go forward.
Having a team as part of the new foundation in Korea means that the information I am providing here is 2nd hand information directly from the foundation, and not gom blizzard or kespa. The lack of transparency is the reason I am talking about this but information is slowly being fed out. I am merely reporting it.
One of the most insular businesses in e-sports history is KESPA. I am not saying KESPA is a bad organisation, but they are extremely insular and secretive. This comes under business practices in ASIA its standard and to be expected. However it doesn’t work for a global business model.
KESPA is a korean organisation. It has only legal rights to govern other korean organisations. Thus, for someone to be involved in KESPA’s organisation they must be a Korean organisation.
This is where things get a bit tricky. At the moment as things are, foreign teams have a small presence in korea, via partnerships and what not. This is not governable by KESPA legally. You cannot govern a foreign entity entirely *note entirely* when it only has a partial presence in Korea. And whilst some foreign organisations like to think they can control everything, with this they cannot.
I was asked the question yesterday whether or not we are a Foreign or Korean team. I asked why and got the results of both. I have now declared my team a Korean team, with foreign players (Strelok bratok etc). How does this work?
We have 16 players, all korean nationals, all based in korea. This makes us a korean team. Should you have 1 korean and 20 foreigners with no house in korea bla bla, you are a foreign team.
From the information given to me, only Korean entities will be participating in the upcoming proleague. Rightly so, considering KESPA is a korean organisation.
People have been asking why I actually said “potentially this could be the end of foreigners in korea”. Whilst its been taken out of context, I would like to explain this further.
Firstly, Proleague money will mean, koreans want to work harder for the korean events (minus a few exceptions of course).
As it stands, there would be 2 maybe 3 foreigners who would qualify for a A team spot to play in proleague. But they aren’t on Korean teams. Which means, they wouldnt be eligable for proleague either at least as I have been informed yesterday.
Next, in order to keep up with the level of play korea will produce, you will need a full korean support and presence in korea. Fnatic potentially will have that, but right now I don’t see any other ‘foreign labelled’ team doing so on their own. Which means that it eliminates the opportunity for a large number of foreigners to play in korea.
Foreign-korean partnerships are what the federation will be fighting for. Trying to keep teams as they are, and allowing for the foreigners to be there at the same time and potentially play via partnership. As it stands there is a threat of this being taken away. I dont want it, you don’t want it, we don’t want it. But the potential is there.
Now, what I am saying is NOT what will happen exactly. There is some sort of trade off thats going to happen. But I am merely stating potential under current information and circumstances.
However other things to keep in mind. If proleague starts, its unlikely the TOP koreans will attend foreign events due to scheduling/obligations. As far as scheduling goes, if proleague and GSL run side by side, my team would have time for 2 foreign events per year. This is an arrow in the knee to the koreans joining foreign teams. Its also a swift kick in the balls to foreign events banking on korean star popularity.
So I would offer a few solutions personally to a means of making this work for everyone.
Firstly, some nationalised events need to start, similar to GSL to promote movement forward globally.
Next, KESPA/foundation like organisations should be made in each major area of SC2, and then connect together with the korean organisations to some how barter the entire system.
If these things happen, sc2 can grow everywhere. But as things stand, it looks like its just going to do what brood war did all over again. And no one wants that.
As it stands, if people remain so insular and do not open their mind in terms of business and organisation, starcraft looks to once again be a korean game just as brood war did. But there is an opportunity now for everyone to go the right direction and make it a global business with entities around the world.
(I know one person in particular who will cry and whine about what I have written, but I think thats because the Korean “federation” was formed before he had a chance /stab)
<3 FXOBoSs Some good insights in there. edit: sniped >_< Hmmm I hope FXOBoss is able to tell Kespa/Whoever needs to be told how important the foreign scene is to the future of SC2. I doubt my interest would be nearly as high without people like Huk fighting it out in tournaments. The only time I will guaranteed stay up to watch GSL at night is when he plays or a couple other of my favorites play(Idra/Jinro/Maybe Naniwa this GSL) Ignoring such a huge viewer base's needs would as he said limit and perhaps kill all growth for SC2 :/ Killing the business model that could emerge.
I dno about the viewer base situation. Honestly, I think the korean players/events get a bucket load more consistent viewers than other tournaments and most of the viewership is outside of Korea. At least for sc2. Everyone wants what is best for everyone, other than business. Of course I aim to look after my business, but of course, I am not exactly a Korean business. I want sc2 to be viable everywhere, because if that occurs, theres more money for business.
Actually the condition of sc2 today is not a great one. There is a heavy tilt in funding and that tends not to work out well in the long run. The top 16's are dominated by people from 1 part of the world, which is a clear indicator that the rest of the world minus a select few, are doing it wrong. I would like the US and major countries in europe to pick up the korean mentality for practice and professionalism, and compete directly with koreans. Hoping that one day a global starcraft league (gsl) can be 50/50 korean foreign. Or even less koreans. Not because I don't like koreans but because I love competition.
At the moment you would have an 90% chance of winning a bet that a korean will win a major event. The odds are heavily in their favour and for sc2 to be global that has to change. Which means its not the koreans who need to change their mindset, its the foreigners.
I do hope everything works out well so that the global exposure explodes. But things have to change in many different ways for sc2 for the foreign scene to a truly viable one.
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So many people writing in this thread without having the slightest clue about what they're actually are saying... So much bias especially from all the people that never followed bw and are basing their opinion on >3rd hand information.
All I want to say is that I'm personally WAY more afraid of Blizzard fucking everything up than KeSPA. I also find it hilarious that people are saying "KeSPA is only in it for the money!!!", well last time i checked Blizzard isn't exactly a fucking charity organization either so start thinking!
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I take this as serious as low budget asian martial arts films:D
no doubt there will be a lot of drama "federation vs association vs Blizzard vs free market"
I*ll go get some popcorn
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Hmmm, so if what FXOBoSs is saying turns out to be accurate, then there is a good chance that some current SC2 teams may participate in the SC2 Proleague.
This might also mean that it may be unlikely that KeSPA will go ahead with the weird SC2/BW hybrid format that has been floating around as rumors since it would be impossible for SC2 teams to compete in BW as well as SC2. Unless, however, the SC2 Proleague comes after the weird, transitional SC2/BW hybrid Proleague.
Actually, I don't know what to believe anymore since there is a lot of conflicting information and rumors floating around.
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coach won from startale seems like a very reasonable guy.
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On March 30 2012 13:22 nokz88 wrote:
The only thing KeSPA has is the new incoming OnGameNet SC2 league, and the current BW teams with players with no clue how to play SC2 properly at a high level.
I'm pretty sure BW pro players can play SC2 at a high level. For example, fOrGG (oGsFin) was grandmaster as an sc2 amateur.
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On March 30 2012 17:57 Plexa wrote:
KeSPA is the regulatory body of all other esports in Korea, except Starcraft 2.
I dont follow other games that much, does this include new, current games like LoL, etc.? If so, how does KeSPA and their leagues interact with the worldwide scenes (f.e. in LoL) ?
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An important step for the global SC2 community..
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EPT
