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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
So nurf Warpgate for the lategame (lets say after 10 gates no new warpgates just standard unit building) or give Terran a T3 unit that dont suck totally (give BC´s more dmg/faster/no energy, give Thors a Fusion Core upgrade for splash) And for these guys who say "yea but Carrier sucks too" look Naniwa vs Ret at Redbull lan on Daybreak. He crushes him with upgraded carriers. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Yes, pretty much this. But I don't care that much as they are removing Thor in Hots.. Now the energy on Thor is there only for 1 purpose and that is so that it can be countered by HT. +1 Vehicle upgrades makes Thor deal more dmg then Strike Cannons, which pretty much says everything about how drunken were those guys.. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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Rinnegan5
Netherlands319 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 19 2012 21:33 Everlong wrote: Yes, pretty much this. But I don't care that much as they are removing Thor in Hots.. Now the energy on Thor is there only for 1 purpose and that is so that it can be countered by HT. +1 Vehicle upgrades makes Thor deal more dmg then Strike Cannons, which pretty much says everything about how drunken were those guys.. Ye let's completely ignore the fact that Strike Cannons bypass Immortal hardened shields AND stun everything but Ultralisks... At least make an effort if you're going to whine. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 19 2012 22:16 karpo wrote: Ye let's completely ignore the fact that Strike Cannons bypass Immortal hardened shields AND stun everything but Ultralisks... At least make an effort if you're going to whine. Sorry, saying that 250mm SC sucks at this point is not whining, it's pure fact.. Ok, I can stun Immortal.. Hopefully my Thor will not die before it can finish it's beautiful strike animation while 5 Immortals with range 7 just own about everything.. | ||
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Rinnegan5
Netherlands319 Posts
On March 19 2012 22:20 Everlong wrote: Sorry, saying that 250mm SC sucks at this point is not whining, it's pure fact.. Ok, I can stun Immortal.. Hopefully my Thor will not die before it can finish it's beautiful strike animation while 5 Immortals with range 7 just own about everything.. SCV autorepair..really hard. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Yeah, it's so good and easy to pull off that the last time I saw Strike Cannons with SCVs in action was, it was, ehmmm.. Hmm, well.. | ||
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GoonFFS
Denmark323 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 19 2012 22:16 karpo wrote: Ye let's completely ignore the fact that Strike Cannons bypass Immortal hardened shields AND stun everything but Ultralisks... At least make an effort if you're going to whine. Yeah.. that's why we see it always researched... wait.. what do you want to stun? Single ground targets that deal alot of damage. On the ground, that's the ultralisk for zerg, the thor for terran and the colossus for toss. Yes, it's great vs the immortal, but immortals are hardly used at the time point where the strike cannon comes into play. Ultralisk cannot be stunned, I haven't seen thors vs thors in a meaningful battle and colossus are out of range. So what single target do you want to stun? If strike cannon loses the stun but gains range 11, hell yeah.. my bio will probably be supportet by thors vs toss. But in it's current incarnation it's just utter crap, especially as you lose 2 seconds in that stupid wind-up animation. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 19 2012 20:24 Ghanburighan wrote: Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made). What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it? You youngsters may not be aware, once upon a time there was a magnificent unit named the vulture, its signature move was the spider mines, however it only came with three and only three, In replaceable mines. Those mines were beautiful. On March 19 2012 22:26 Thrombozyt wrote: Yeah.. that's why we see it always researched... wait.. what do you want to stun? Single ground targets that deal alot of damage. On the ground, that's the ultralisk for zerg, the thor for terran and the colossus for toss. Yes, it's great vs the immortal, but immortals are hardly used at the time point where the strike cannon comes into play. Ultralisk cannot be stunned, I haven't seen thors vs thors in a meaningful battle and colossus are out of range. So what single target do you want to stun? If strike cannon loses the stun but gains range 11, hell yeah.. my bio will probably be supportet by thors vs toss. But in it's current incarnation it's just utter crap, especially as you lose 2 seconds in that stupid wind-up animation. A Strike Cannon range buff from 7-9 (colossus range) will easily fix that | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 19 2012 22:26 Thrombozyt wrote: Yeah.. that's why we see it always researched... wait.. what do you want to stun? Single ground targets that deal alot of damage. On the ground, that's the ultralisk for zerg, the thor for terran and the colossus for toss. Yes, it's great vs the immortal, but immortals are hardly used at the time point where the strike cannon comes into play. Ultralisk cannot be stunned, I haven't seen thors vs thors in a meaningful battle and colossus are out of range. So what single target do you want to stun? If strike cannon loses the stun but gains range 11, hell yeah.. my bio will probably be supportet by thors vs toss. But in it's current incarnation it's just utter crap, especially as you lose 2 seconds in that stupid wind-up animation. If immortals are immune to the stun, I could see the strike cannon being ok. The main problem with Thors in the match up was that they could stun the immortals and zealots lacked the DPS to overcome the auto repair on the SCV. When supported by marines and maruaders, it became a two base death ball. This was a really longer time ago however, back in TSL 3. Things have changed and I could see the Thor going back to having a cool down. | ||
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FreddYCooL
Sweden415 Posts
And when they leave 1 HT at each base dropping becomes impossible as they can just feedback and warp in 10 zealots. And if you win a decisive battle you still cannot push since his new warp in of zealots will destroy your damaged army. And if you lose a single battle it is game over since the warp in mechanic destroys any sort of defenders advantage. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
But then again I am a Terran player and Terran players are manly so it's ok | ||
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kekek
Finland26 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote: Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. So you have never actually properly tried playing protoss. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:31 Blasterion wrote: I think the biggest issue is still warp in since it's completely mindfucks the defender's advantage. Something that's so default and important in an RTS But then again I am a Terran player and Terran players are manly so it's ok That and the Colossus. They make and encurage the death ball play. Some terrible design choices with the P race. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:31 Blasterion wrote: I think the biggest issue is still warp in since it's completely mindfucks the defender's advantage. Something that's so default and important in an RTS But then again I am a Terran player and Terran players are manly so it's ok Once upon a time, people actually knew the difference between RTS and Broodwar. Sad times, in which BW-like play is the only way professional RTS games are allowed to be played. | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:31 Blasterion wrote: I think the biggest issue is still warp in since it's completely mindfucks the defender's advantage. Something that's so default and important in an RTS But then again I am a Terran player and Terran players are manly so it's ok I actually like the warpin mechanic, but it is so powerful since gateway units are some of the most powerful in terms of DPS/HP per 10 supply. (they're expensive, I get it!). It creates an infinite defenders advantage for a protoss to defend harass well and exert map control. One pylon in the 3rd for warpins can cause massive issues to an army moving out, almost forcing an allin sometimes and at least the opponent sucking up time from his attack to deal with your powerful harass. It creates interesting gameplay, but the volume of warpins that can happen at once is an issue. It isn't fair to take it away from protoss since T and Z can do it too (just with a delay for build times and traversing the map), and it would also be unfair to weaken their race's gateway units otherwise they flat out die early in the game when building their first tech up. 3/3/3 charge zealot and an archon and sentry is so powerful against any other 3/3 unit composition a terran can remake quickly (say, 14 marines, 5 mauraders, 4 ghosts and 4 medivacs to be generous about infrastructure). Zealots not only can not be kited, archons do amazing amounts of damage, zealots also do very high "burst" dps so medivacs can't heal fast enough, and also those compositions DON'T DIE!! even with EMPs going down they have so much HP and armor, and if guardian shield goes up its even harder to kill the zealots fast enough. This is all from gateway units that are viable to be made as soon as a protoss loses supplies in a major engagement, with a total of 5 seconds warpin time anywhere on the map. (plus some for archon morph). This is how Protoss is SUPPOSED to play their race, imo, which is unfortunate. Terran needs to find more ways to end games quickly and essentially be semi allin every midgame once we have our tech and protoss doesn't. Hell, lets get some rushed ghosts because 2 EMPs can turn a gateway army to nothing so fast and if you missed your timing because of sentry control or w/e, you have infrastructure for late game anyway and a couple ghosts ready to snipe down fast HTs or at least EMP the gateway buffer of collosus. The ticking time bomb isn't what I want to say will be happening in all matchups, but terran has the potential to be super-allin and also still recover. Why not "abuse" it? Look at recent GSTL matches in TvP, where GhostKingPrime (Byun) played 3 TvPs with three "almost allin timings" vs a few notable protoss including ST Parting. (one was a ghost rush iirc, one was a 1-1-1 contain with double expand behind it moving toward more traditional settings but he flat out killed with 111, and the last was a stim bio rush pre medivacs against a greedy opener from parting). Let's force the opponent to defend with uncomfortable units to defend rushes well all the time. We already try and force zerg to make units they don't want to make (IE roaches, units vs drones, corruptors for AA vs ultras/infestors, etc), why not force a protoss to defend on only gateway more often? | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 19 2012 23:51 Big J wrote: Once upon a time, people actually knew the difference between RTS and Broodwar. Sad times, in which BW-like play is the only way professional RTS games are allowed to be played. Unlike what you imagined, no Koreans didn't have warp in in Age of Empires 2 they had War Wagons and Turtleships | ||
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