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On March 19 2012 14:52 TG Manny wrote:
I have been responding in here too and I want to play MY race easier and see more Terrans on the non-korean pro scene.]
Most of us here don't want the race easier. We like having to micro well to win, because when we do win it feels that much better. We just want P/Z to have to micro more than they currently need to. That's all. It feels like the Terran is the one doing all the work in TvP especially, and the protoss just needs to defend and get on 3 base and then just roll you with superior units.
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On March 19 2012 14:22 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 14:12 magnaflow wrote:
Stephano just said on SOTG that ghosts are terrible now, and when a zerg arm,y has BL/Infestor a terran player cannot engage the zerg army. That makes 2 of the 3 matchups that a terran player has to avoid the opposing race army. welcome to how zerg played for the first year of the game metagame shifts, they're a bitch sometimes 
Yeah ghosts getting nerfed to hell was quite an unfortunate metagame shift o_O
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On March 19 2012 14:22 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 14:12 magnaflow wrote:
Stephano just said on SOTG that ghosts are terrible now, and when a zerg arm,y has BL/Infestor a terran player cannot engage the zerg army. That makes 2 of the 3 matchups that a terran player has to avoid the opposing race army. welcome to how zerg played for the first year of the game metagame shifts, they're a bitch sometimes
You mean the time when zerg was considered underpowered?
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Just thinking about HoTS..... Going to be fun microing away from burrow-charge ultras and vipers.
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On March 19 2012 15:08 CeroFail wrote:
Just thinking about HoTS..... Going to be fun microing away from burrow-charge ultras and vipers.
I wouldn't worry about it. If those changes actually happen, terran units will have to be buffed so that they can go toe-to-toe against ultras.
Its literally impossible to micro away from them, so it might actually make it easier for terran.
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On March 19 2012 12:53 YyapSsap wrote:
Its also interesting to point out there T is the only race to become the reactionary race end game. There is never a situation where the opposing T players force P or even Z to switch techs (since they pretty much use up the whole tech unlike the P due to upgrades and time taken to invest into it).
I agree 100%, in TvP and late game TvZ, its up to the terran player to adjust his army composition to cater to what the other race is doing. It's frustrating to never have the upper hand or be able to catch my opponent off guard. If terran doesn't have the hard counter to their units, it's gg. There's never a situation where P or Z says "oh shit now he's got ___ i have to produce ___ or im gonna die." Outside of meching vs zerg, let me know if im wrong here, but what adjustments do other races have to make to their army in the mid-late game against a terran?
The reason i have a problem with the snipe nerf, is that its just so easy for a zerg to make the tech switch from BL to ultra, and there is not one T unit left that effectively counters both. broodlings and ultras even work off the same upgrades. and against protoss, i've had to come to the understanding that no matter what if we're over that 15 mark, i need both vikings and ghosts. But either way, i have no way of forcing their hand, and they will do what they want without having to worry about what im making.
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There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
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On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor.
I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory.
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On March 19 2012 20:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor. I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory.
Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made).
What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it?
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Terran in a deceiving race. Peoples thoughts on Terran has change drastically time and time again, they have many powerful units, but many of their units are also easily countered. Many people who do not play Terran think their mechanics are so easy, you can drop multiple mules at once, no injects, scans let you see cloak pretty easily, etc. but I would say their mechanics are as hard as Zerg's. They will always have 4 production buildings which should always have units coming out of them, they need to know whether to put a reactor or a tech lab on each building. Plus, they simply have the most buildings. For the begging of the game, it isn't a big deal, but in end game scenarios, it becomes one. Your units are easily countered, but each unit can aptly deal with certain units quiet well. I would argue that Protoss needs to be the most aware of their unit comp, but Terrans need to do that as well. I am by no means a pro or analyst, but their have been many games where it looks like a Terran would have won a deciding battle if they had just 3 more vikings instead of medivacs, or if 20 of those marines were marauders.
Terran has multiple learning curves. When you pass one hurdle, you may go up two leagues, so it does not surprise me that certain levels have less T's than others.
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On March 19 2012 20:24 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 20:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor. I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory. Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made). What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it?
So we fix TvP lategame by giving protoss more options. Well, how did I never think of that? That's absolutely brilliant!
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On March 19 2012 20:31 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 20:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2012 20:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor. I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory. Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made). What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it? So we fix TvP lategame by giving protoss more options. Well, how did I never think of that? That's absolutely brilliant!
Err.. I was being unclear. There would need to be compensation for taking away the mech counter role from HT, and I think P air could be that option.
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On March 19 2012 20:33 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 20:31 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 19 2012 20:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2012 20:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor. I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory. Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made). What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it? So we fix TvP lategame by giving protoss more options. Well, how did I never think of that? That's absolutely brilliant! Err.. I was being unclear. There would need to be compensation for taking away the mech counter role from HT, and I think P air could be that option.
Protoss air counters mech just fine already. Phoenix/carrier is actually unbeatable with pure vikings and a bunch of thors. It's an impossible fight to win. Void rays destroy thors, phoenixes can lift tanks. And by simply removing thor energy and BC energy you still dont fix the problem with chargelots and immortals who both absolutely destroy mech.
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On March 19 2012 20:33 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 20:31 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 19 2012 20:24 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 19 2012 20:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 20:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
There was a post several pages back comparing the rationale for nerfing ghosts (they countered two different tech paths of Z) to the role of HT's.
Let's count the things HT's counter:
1) Battlecruisers (fb)
2) Thor (fb)
3) Medivac (fb)
4) Bio (s)
5) dropped units (s)
6) raven (fb)
7) banshee (fb)
8) economy (s scv)
9) vikings (s)
10) ghost (fb)
What this tells us is that the HT counters 3 different play-styles of a T. It counters bio-based play due to storms and fb on medivac/ghost. It counters harass because medivacs, banshees and dropped units can be dealt with using HT. And HT counters mech because they can fb thors and BC, and storm vikings (fb on ravens helps too). On top of this role, they are an awesome harass unit as an unscouted HT or two warped onto a high-ground (Xel'naga/Shakuras thirds are good examples) will decimate your scv line in its entirety without giving you a chance to react. So a logical response would be to ask whether this versatility ought to be in one unit, considering it wasn't supposed to be in the ghost.
Counter is a strong word. Effective against is better, since they have the ability to do those things. And the marine is effective against all of the same units, with the exception of the thor. I have said before that I would have no problem with removing energy from the banshee and raven. Cloak could be on a timer with a solid cool down and the raven could be ammo based. The thor would need a bit more work, because without energy, it can become the two base all-in unit of glory. Yeah, I agree with that counter is a strong word. I actually like the HT v Ghost micro battles, and it can go either way most of the time. I'm actually thinking that an interesting solution might be in giving P an air-alternative. Currently, flying units aren't used by P against T (with the exception of Nony with his Phoenix) but voids should be the counter to Thor and BC (there is even an element of micro involved in the Thor v void ray battles as Thor splash is good against voids if clumped up but voids win easily if that mistake isn't made). What do you mean by ammo-based ravens? Do you mean like the Nuke that you need to build a seeker missile before launching it? So we fix TvP lategame by giving protoss more options. Well, how did I never think of that? That's absolutely brilliant! Err.. I was being unclear. There would need to be compensation for taking away the mech counter role from HT, and I think P air could be that option.
Wait what? Because there clearly aren't enough units that have "mech counter" role in Protoss arsenal? (cought, Immortal, Chargelot, Blink, Voidray, ... cought)
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Feedback only damages biological units and just removes energy from the mechanical ones. Problem solved.
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I Feel like all three terran matchups are incredibly stressful, at least for me. Everyone has already outlined how difficult tvp is, even for most professional terrans, but for me It's probably my best matchup, I feel like a lot of the problems I had in the matchup were psychological, you see them get their big a-move deathball and freak out and think how the fuck can I win, but now I try to remain as calm as possible, have worked on my ghost/late game play and stuff and it's starting to work pretty well for me. It's still very stressful though.
TvZ is also very stressful. If you're caught out of position vs the uber fast swarm, you die. Then there's all the micro you need to do to win engagements, the macro and multitasking etc (olften all at the same time), it's a very tough matchup, but once again it's really rewarding if you win it, I wouldn't change it in a second.
TvT is probably the most difficult of all especially if it's a long game involving a lot of tanks. It's very tactical and just very difficult.
I've fleetingly thought about changing to protoss, but I don't want to give up, and I like terran too much. I don't want it dumbed down either, I love seeing the top Korean Terrans maximise the potential out of the race, and do the stuff most of us mortals can't get anywhere near doing.
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On March 19 2012 20:56 AxionSteel wrote:
I Feel like all three terran matchups are incredibly stressful, at least for me. Everyone has already outlined how difficult tvp is, even for most professional terrans, but for me It's probably my best matchup, I feel like a lot of the problems I had in the matchup were psychological, you see them get their big a-move deathball and freak out and think how the fuck can I win, but now I try to remain as calm as possible, have worked on my ghost/late game play and stuff and it's starting to work pretty well for me. It's still very stressful though.
TvZ is also very stressful. If you're caught out of position vs the uber fast swarm, you die. Then there's all the micro you need to do to win engagements, the macro and multitasking etc (olften all at the same time), it's a very tough matchup, but once again it's really rewarding if you win it, I wouldn't change it in a second.
TvT is probably the most difficult of all especially if it's a long game involving a lot of tanks. It's very tactical and just very difficult.
I've fleetingly thought about changing to protoss, but I don't want to give up, and I like terran too much. I don't want it dumbed down either, I love seeing the top Korean Terrans maximise the potential out of the race, and do the stuff most of us mortals can't get anywhere near doing.
I can only suggest to you to check Lyyna's replays he posted in the thread "How to mech TvP". If you really feel stressed playing terran, you don't like to play against clock, go check those replays and see how you can play terran. He absolutely destroys your basic "John Brown" that just sits there waiting for 200/200 and 1a for the win..
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I think the best thing they can do without breaking any meta game stats, is to nerf Storm radius. couse it is an insanely whide radius. and maybe reduce storm damage slightly. Couse 1 good storm is can basicly be a game changer. Why not make it 2 storms? with a slightly reduced damage ouput?
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At least for me, the problem lies mostly in ZvT late game (as i always mech vs P :3) It seems like i have to make vikings from 6 starports just to get smashed 5 minutes later by a bunch of ultras. Zerg can simply switch one unit in their composition (BL for ultra) and it stays just as effective. (BL/infestor/ling or ultra/infestor/ling) and there can also come a point where he has so many well upgraded corruptors and BLs that you basically have to max on only viking/thor which gets rolled by whatever remax the zerg chooses.
Vs protoss i think simply removing the thor/BC energy and possibly have a late game upgrade for hellions (battle hellion-ish or just a +1 armor) would allow mech to be super-viable. Just EMP those immortals and his entire army melts :D
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On March 19 2012 20:55 Thrombozyt wrote:
Feedback only damages biological units and just removes energy from the mechanical ones. Problem solved.
This.
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EPT
