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On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information.
DeMuslim was macroing perfectly while Bling was not, and won two max vs max engagements with a good supply lead. He takes out a fresh expo and stops DT harass. Then he loses one engagement because a storm lands and loses the whole game. I quote Bling from the post-match interview: "protoss imba, storms".
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i guess they switched to LoL lol
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On March 19 2012 03:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. It's just the way foreigner play works. Both max out very early with no agression but maybe 1 drop for Terran to "do like the Koreans". Then they watch the other army, dancing around on the map convinced that they can't engage and that it's the "safe way" to play the game. Suddenly one guy loses track of his army and a battle ensues. Protoss has 4k/2k banked up and 20 warpgates, and weirdly rolls over the Terran, regardless of the first battle's result. I'm a bit exagerating, but that's always the foreigner mindset when I watch them play.
You obviously didn't bother watching the game we're referring to.
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On March 19 2012 03:17 Xirroh wrote:
Yes the game was very silly. It made Protoss look so stupidly strong. It's true though, you can't push against toss with only a 20-40 supply lead because of warp in. However if you lose an engagement it's all over. This would only be fair if terrans max army was stronger then protoss's (like BW), but it is not.
This may not be why Demuslim lost, could have been many other reasons, but the game did look silly.
These games are the worst, you play like a boss, win 2/3 big engagements, get more ahead. Fuck up your micro once, 2/3 storms, dead. =.=
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On March 19 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. The game literally just happened. IDK where the VODs are, they prolly aren't up yet. Demuslim just tweeted afterwards "Protoss is actually pretty bullshit."
Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game.
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He ate an absolute ton of storms and whiffed a couple of possible money EMPs. What are you going to do.
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This isn't a PvT problem though, every single player understands that anyone with a lead in SC2 wether its PvP PvZ PvT or ZvT ZvZ or TvT know that you can lose the entire game if you fuck a single battle, thats how the SC2 design team made it, and get usto it... last time I checked if you lose a major battle ANYWHERE (ZvT baneling/ling/muta clean 10 tanks and 50 marines with medvac) well T loses, great even if T has 100000 bases and 10000000 barracks) its just how it is
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On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. The game literally just happened. IDK where the VODs are, they prolly aren't up yet. Demuslim just tweeted afterwards "Protoss is actually pretty bullshit." Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game.
Demu was up from the beginning. He went for 1 rax expo with an engi bay block and delayed Bling's expo ALOT. In fact, Demuslim's CC was over 3/4 done when Bling had just started his Nexus. Then he poked and saw bling had collosus. Started viking production immediately. Held Blings Collosus push, managing to come out 30 supply ahead. Manages to come out ahead in next fight thanks to EMP. Loses game because he is Terran.
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On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game.
DeMuslim was ahead in economy, storm drops didn't do much - Bling missed most of his storms and at point even ran his whole army through his own storms. But it didn't matter, because he landed one eventually.
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On March 19 2012 02:36 Blasterion wrote:
If you are meching with just Hellions you are doing it wrong. Zealots run in EMP !!!!! then they eat some tank Shells, YUM! Eat that mouthless freaks! Then you roast them and give them a big hug cuz Hellions suck and are only good as buffering. You don't really like them so you make them hug zealots while they eat more shells. YUM! then you like go your thors that starts like ripping their shit up because they lost most of their zealots, and Thors are like yo i don't give a shit! because there is like SCVs around repairing. Oh yeah if they got HTs you gotta EMP them. And then you are like OH SHIT IMMORTALS~!!! Get me them some 250s. and so Immortals die. all while Stalkers eat some delicious Siege shells and can't shoot because Ravens are like the best unit. and rally more tanks and stuff and Colossus get shot down by vikings because some how you have them. And you snipe that observer with a scan and Banshees are like You got nothing on me! and you win.
Sounds great on paper. Give me a few month to put it into practice though. I am pretty sure it's doable.
Haha, that was awesome. Be sure and post the replay when you put it into practice ^^
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On March 19 2012 03:23 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game. DeMuslim was ahead in economy, storm drops didn't do much - Bling missed most of his storms and at point even ran his whole army through his own storms. But it didn't matter, because he landed one eventually.
Yea Bling would run all his chargelots through each of his storms because he was 1Aing.
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On March 19 2012 02:06 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 01:49 altered wrote:On March 19 2012 01:44 Xirroh wrote:
To get this discussion back on track, a summary of where we are:
The frustration of Terran is not coming from absolute imbalance. As stated many times Korean terrans are still doing well. The frustration is from a relative imbalance in terms of the APM/unit control required of the terran vs the protoss in the late game.
It appears to the terrans posting here that terran requires a significant amount more unit control skill to trade effectively vs Protoss in the late game with Bio. Other units with less APM requirements (mech/air) don't work as well vs Protoss, Whether this is fair or not is somewhat of a separate discussion.
It seems reasonable that mid-high level terrans would become frustrated by losing games because of unit control when their opponent is not effected in the same way. They would perceive an unfairness (whether real or not) and possibly give up the game or switch races. This is maybe "where they went".
Personal opinions:
Unit control seems more important for terran then for protoss at the mid-high levels of unprofessional play in the late game. This is frustrating and appears unfair. However races are balanced differently. It's hard to say if things are actually unfair.
To answer the OP's question: TvP at least appears unfair for terran, whether true or not (an opinion the 70+ pages of previous posts will show). Frustration with this apparent unfairness may explain "where the went" (quitting / another race / playing less).
Solution?
Give terran a less APM / fragile style of play vs protoss.
Or
Terrans could man up. or make protoss harder to play? See, that's basically an okay idea, but you need to understand that in making protoss harder, they also need to make it better, at the pro level at least. Make changes that allow high skill protoss players to outmicro their way out of a jam. With the state of the pro level as it is it'd be stupid to make terran simply stronger or protoss simply weaker, and I don't think people want to see much dumbing down of terran micro. Give the best players of the other races options that make them consistent contenders at the pro level, and then you can see about general balance for all skill levels afterwards. Every time someone says "The terrans in the GSL are just better" or that they have a better broodwar pedigree or something, we're delaying the kind of changes this game needs to see.
for the bolded part:
nope, if you increase the gain from micro for protoss units, you actually have to make them worse statwise, because otherwise it would be overpowered at the prolevel, and that is exactly how terrans were balanced.
interesting!
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On March 19 2012 03:23 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game. DeMuslim was ahead in economy, storm drops didn't do much - Bling missed most of his storms and at point even ran his whole army through his own storms. But it didn't matter, because he landed one eventually.
What game were you watching? The two biggest engagements of the game, Bling lands Storms on the majority of Demuslim's army with no kiting and Demuslim still traded well. Economy was a wash until the 2 Medivac drop, but Demuslim basically evened it up by losing the Medivacs near the top of the map and then another couple with about 20 supply of units in the middle of the map.
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On March 19 2012 03:23 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game. DeMuslim was ahead in economy, storm drops didn't do much - Bling missed most of his storms and at point even ran his whole army through his own storms. But it didn't matter, because he landed one eventually.
VERY VERY accurate report of the match. "But it didn't matter, because he landed one eventually."
That sums up the game perfectly, he missed and missed and missed but when finally he got one his chargelots made sure Demuslim lose.
"protoss is actually pretty bullshit." - another quote that sums up nice the game.
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On March 19 2012 03:17 sushichef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. DeMuslim was macroing perfectly while Bling was not, and won two max vs max engagements with a good supply lead. He takes out a fresh expo and stops DT harass. Then he loses one engagement because a storm lands and loses the whole game. I quote Bling from the post-match interview: "protoss imba, storms".
Look again, demuslim played well, but in engagements he was not producing bio during some of the fights. Also, bling had a better eco for a while and demuslim didn't get any game breaking emp's whereas bling got good storms. I am a z player so totally unbias here, just thought i'd give my opinion that no race is stupidly op
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On March 19 2012 03:23 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 02:36 Blasterion wrote:
If you are meching with just Hellions you are doing it wrong. Zealots run in EMP !!!!! then they eat some tank Shells, YUM! Eat that mouthless freaks! Then you roast them and give them a big hug cuz Hellions suck and are only good as buffering. You don't really like them so you make them hug zealots while they eat more shells. YUM! then you like go your thors that starts like ripping their shit up because they lost most of their zealots, and Thors are like yo i don't give a shit! because there is like SCVs around repairing. Oh yeah if they got HTs you gotta EMP them. And then you are like OH SHIT IMMORTALS~!!! Get me them some 250s. and so Immortals die. all while Stalkers eat some delicious Siege shells and can't shoot because Ravens are like the best unit. and rally more tanks and stuff and Colossus get shot down by vikings because some how you have them. And you snipe that observer with a scan and Banshees are like You got nothing on me! and you win.
Sounds great on paper. Give me a few month to put it into practice though. I am pretty sure it's doable. Haha, that was awesome. Be sure and post the replay when you put it into practice ^^
You'll be the first to know. I'll have you know I lasted 7 minutes against SlayerSGanzi! I am a genius in the works
jk
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On March 19 2012 03:22 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:20 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:17 SupLilSon wrote:On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. The game literally just happened. IDK where the VODs are, they prolly aren't up yet. Demuslim just tweeted afterwards "Protoss is actually pretty bullshit." Yeah, from the live report thread it sounds like he got storm dropped a few times. But the end game matters less to me that the opening and knowing if Demuslim was behind to begin with. The majority of the time a protoss will try to deny future expansions rather then attack into a terran player, which drags out the game. Demu was up from the beginning. He went for 1 rax expo with an engi bay block and delayed Bling's expo ALOT. In fact, Demuslim's CC was over 3/4 done when Bling had just started his Nexus. Then he poked and saw bling had collosus. Started viking production immediately. Held Blings Collosus push, managing to come out 30 supply ahead. Manages to come out ahead in next fight thanks to EMP. Loses game because he is Terran.
That sounds like a pretty standard TvP with 1rax FE vs 1 gate FE, including the engi block. However, starting viking production after the protoss has colossi out is pretty rough. Still, I will have to watch the VOD, since everything is so engagement dependent.
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On March 19 2012 03:24 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 02:06 Resistentialism wrote:On March 19 2012 01:49 altered wrote:On March 19 2012 01:44 Xirroh wrote:
To get this discussion back on track, a summary of where we are:
The frustration of Terran is not coming from absolute imbalance. As stated many times Korean terrans are still doing well. The frustration is from a relative imbalance in terms of the APM/unit control required of the terran vs the protoss in the late game.
It appears to the terrans posting here that terran requires a significant amount more unit control skill to trade effectively vs Protoss in the late game with Bio. Other units with less APM requirements (mech/air) don't work as well vs Protoss, Whether this is fair or not is somewhat of a separate discussion.
It seems reasonable that mid-high level terrans would become frustrated by losing games because of unit control when their opponent is not effected in the same way. They would perceive an unfairness (whether real or not) and possibly give up the game or switch races. This is maybe "where they went".
Personal opinions:
Unit control seems more important for terran then for protoss at the mid-high levels of unprofessional play in the late game. This is frustrating and appears unfair. However races are balanced differently. It's hard to say if things are actually unfair.
To answer the OP's question: TvP at least appears unfair for terran, whether true or not (an opinion the 70+ pages of previous posts will show). Frustration with this apparent unfairness may explain "where the went" (quitting / another race / playing less).
Solution?
Give terran a less APM / fragile style of play vs protoss.
Or
Terrans could man up. or make protoss harder to play? See, that's basically an okay idea, but you need to understand that in making protoss harder, they also need to make it better, at the pro level at least. Make changes that allow high skill protoss players to outmicro their way out of a jam. With the state of the pro level as it is it'd be stupid to make terran simply stronger or protoss simply weaker, and I don't think people want to see much dumbing down of terran micro. Give the best players of the other races options that make them consistent contenders at the pro level, and then you can see about general balance for all skill levels afterwards. Every time someone says "The terrans in the GSL are just better" or that they have a better broodwar pedigree or something, we're delaying the kind of changes this game needs to see. for the bolded part: nope, if you increase the gain from micro for protoss units, you actually have to make them worse statwise, because otherwise it would be overpowered at the prolevel, and that is exactly how terrans were balanced. interesting!
Hey, way to bold a part and then ignore the rest of it, like Give the best players of the other races options that make them consistent contenders at the pro level, and then you can see about general balance for all skill levels afterwards.
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On March 19 2012 03:26 Supah wrote:
What game were you watching? The two biggest engagements of the game, Bling lands Storms on the majority of Demuslim's army with no kiting and Demuslim still traded well. Economy was a wash until the 2 Medivac drop, but Demuslim basically evened it up by losing the Medivacs near the top of the map and then another couple with about 20 supply of units in the middle of the map.
Ugh, no kiting? How did Bling's own zealots ended up running through those storms then? And how did DeMuslim come out 30 supply up twice then? He was ahead in SCVs the whole game, and was an expo up after that drop. Those storm drops DID look cool, but they didn't do much because of Demu's control. But then he slips up once and it's gg.
Did you hear how surprised the casters were when Demuslim gg'd? They'd been talking about how much of a good position he was in.
Did you watch the post-match interview? Bling HIMSELF, UNPROMPTED said "protoss imba, storms".
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On March 19 2012 03:28 iiGreetings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 03:17 sushichef wrote:On March 19 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote:+ Show Spoiler +lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead. oops spoilers I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information. DeMuslim was macroing perfectly while Bling was not, and won two max vs max engagements with a good supply lead. He takes out a fresh expo and stops DT harass. Then he loses one engagement because a storm lands and loses the whole game. I quote Bling from the post-match interview: "protoss imba, storms". Look again, demuslim played well, but in engagements he was not producing bio during some of the fights. Also, bling had a better eco for a while and demuslim didn't get any game breaking emp's whereas bling got good storms. I am a z player so totally unbias here, just thought i'd give my opinion that no race is stupidly op
Yeah, that is a pretty conflicting report from what folks in this thread are saying. If both sides have 5 emp/storms and only one hits, the side that hit is going to do better. That's not really very shocking. Still, it is unclear who had the economic lead from peoples posts.
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EPT
