On March 19 2012 02:00 huehuehuehue wrote: I think just give the other races some units that need micro and make mech viable in TvP and everything will be fine. I don't think blizzard should make T easier.
"Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
I'm not saying I disagree with you, playing mech would be cool, and not that easy either, but giving a race more options without removing any makes it easier to play, de facto. Now I'm all for making the other races harder to play. I would switch back to Protoss if it became like "teh hard mode", instead I switched to Terran as soon as it appeared they weren't doing so good :D
Honestly though, Terran changes for HotS look much more promising that the Protoss ones. Look forward to it.
Because laying mines would require micro. Goody probably can't lay mines. Give us mines it'll save mech. Oh HotS I do look foward to Shredders. Hopefully they don't cost a lot of supply
On March 19 2012 02:00 huehuehuehue wrote: I think just give the other races some units that need micro and make mech viable in TvP and everything will be fine. I don't think blizzard should make T easier.
"Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
I'm not saying I disagree with you, playing mech would be cool, and not that easy either, but giving a race more options without removing any makes it easier to play, de facto. Now I'm all for making the other races harder to play. I would switch back to Protoss if it became like "teh hard mode", instead I switched to Terran as soon as it appeared they weren't doing so good :D
Honestly though, Terran changes for HotS look much more promising that the Protoss ones. Look forward to it.
Well make mech harder & better then. But tbh i don't think mech is as easy as you think, TvT and TvZ mech is fairly difficult.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
[quote] Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
I suggest you do the same. The videos present you pretty much the biggest problem in terran gameplay in general. Your units dont do shit against anything, without micro. Thats goes not just for hellions, but every frikkin unit. Comparing that to forcefields (had a good laugh, thank you) its, well, at least "naive".
Yeah, microed Hellions with a lot of space would devour the zealots. So? You dont have the luxury to kite zealots in a big fight. Protoss a-moves his army into yours, and goes back to macro. A terran has to rotate like a tornado with at least 250apm+ to beat "a-leftclick". Even your "counterarguments" are wrong, lings have to be microed vs stalker (especially earlygame) to surround them. Smartcasting forcefields has nothing to do with real micro. At all. It doesnt even need high apm, you could CLICK them vs T without using a hotkey and it still would be enough.
So, conclusion: yeah. Hellions can roast zealots. In theory. In theory, a warp-engine would be possible in reallife (the math proves it). Problem is, theres no practical way to do it. Unless of course you want to sac the whole rest of your army, because you kited zealots - while collossi and every other a-move unit just smashes the rest of your unmicroed army.
let's play a quiz game I call: the answer is micro! This episode will be about Protoss (vs Terran) gameplay. (It's pretty easy, though in this thread one gets to the point to believe that some Terran players simply won't be able to answer those questions correctly)
1) Marines beat stalkers (and zealots) early on in a move duels (later on even harder, but that's not a realistic scenario most of the time). Question: How come Protoss pressures Terran with stalkers at that periode of time?
2) MMM (or just MM) demolish any kind of Protoss Gateway (or gateway + Immortal or gateway + void ray) allin, bunkers make this difference even bigger. So how come, there are Protoss "Immortal busts" or 6-8gates or blink allins etc against bunkered Terrans?
3) Marines beat any Protoss nonsplash composition early on on amove, so how come that Protoss can defend against such Terran pressure/allin strategies at that time?
1)Stalkers have higher range and are faster, also regenerate shield out of battle. As long as you cannot harm the stalker with enough damage per shot he can and will kite you.
2) The truth is, you will most likely not have a high enough medivac count to counter immortal / gateway allins IF at all have them. Bunkers are very good, if you could actually repair them. A competent Protoss will not allow you to get repair on your bunkers and even so, the damage output of the Protoss army such as an immortal allin is insane, you cannot counter-repair it.
Monchi for example beats very good Terrans and he said he can play very well with Sentry/Zealot/Immortal against MMM as long as his economy is ahead eventually having to transition out of it, but it can work if you are spot on with forcefields. The current builds allow Protoss to play greedy, as 1 gate expansion is a very tricky thing to punish. If he follows it up with 4 gate pressure you can end up losing all your units for barely anything
3)Forcefields and the double-nexus chronoboost all into units instead of economy. Its like countering a non-splash allin with double or tripple reactors to get a high unit count with high damage output.
I understand the point you want to make, yet you have to understand that forcefields, especially in a situation where you have to defend an allin will not allow for a lot of micro. Ofcourse you can counter it, but its very hard, especially against those allins. You will not have ghosts by that time and a good Protoss can either push all your units out of range, or in a circle so they actually cannot attack.
Forcefields are a huge design flaw in my opinion. Good forcefields will leave your opponent nearly without a chance even with a superior army, while bad forcefields can lose you a game when you acutally would be perfectly fine. Protoss relies on forcefields way too much, but unfortunately I cannot see that change.
Honestly, I'm not sure you understood it. I was implying that the Protoss player has to micro to make those things work, because basically in all those situations the Terran army wins the a-move battle. (to show that Protoss is not just "a-move") (I agree that things like FF, and some other abilities that don't allow for any countermicro if properly done feel very "random" and unfair)
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
[quote] Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
I suggest you do the same. The videos present you pretty much the biggest problem in terran gameplay in general. Your units dont do shit against anything, without micro. Thats goes not just for hellions, but every frikkin unit. Comparing that to forcefields (had a good laugh, thank you) its, well, at least "naive".
Yeah, microed Hellions with a lot of space would devour the zealots. So? You dont have the luxury to kite zealots in a big fight. Protoss a-moves his army into yours, and goes back to macro. A terran has to rotate like a tornado with at least 250apm+ to beat "a-leftclick". Even your "counterarguments" are wrong, lings have to be microed vs stalker (especially earlygame) to surround them. Smartcasting forcefields has nothing to do with real micro. At all. It doesnt even need high apm, you could CLICK them vs T without using a hotkey and it still would be enough.
So, conclusion: yeah. Hellions can roast zealots. In theory. In theory, a warp-engine would be possible in reallife (the math proves it). Problem is, [i] theres no practical way to do it. Unless of course you want to sac the whole rest of your army, because you kited zealots - while collossi and every other a-move unit just smashes the rest of your unmicroed army.
let's play a quiz game I call: the answer is micro! This episode will be about Protoss (vs Terran) gameplay. (It's pretty easy, though in this thread one gets to the point to believe that some Terran players simply won't be able to answer those questions correctly)
1) Marines beat stalkers (and zealots) early on in a move duels (later on even harder, but that's not a realistic scenario most of the time). Question: How come Protoss pressures Terran with stalkers at that periode of time? 2) MMM (or just MM) demolish any kind of Protoss Gateway (or gateway + Immortal or gateway + void ray) allin, bunkers make this difference even bigger. So how come, there are Protoss "Immortal busts" or 6-8gates or blink allins etc against bunkered Terrans? 3) Marines beat any Protoss nonsplash composition early on on amove, so how come that Protoss can defend against such Terran pressure/allin strategies at that time? 4) Casters on a-move don't do anything apart from attack (if they can), so how come that storms and FFs occur in battles? 5) In bigger army compositions, melee units like zealots tend to get stuck behind the other units, so how come that most of the time we see zealots in the front of the other units?
Sentry guardian shield makes gateway units decent in a move battles and FF makes bunkers less efective. Zealots are good in late game because of basic unit positioning.
If you are trying to implay that these situations are the same with needing to kite half the map to make mmm (or hellions) good, then you are wrong. One click micro (unit positioning, spells, etc ) is completly different from constant kiting. Most people can do one of these with resonable succes while they have big trouble with the other until they reach a certain skill level.
yup, seeing how kiting was pretty much the first micro that was invented somewhat back in the beta and proper forcefielding took pretty much until GSL season 3, I can definatly see how people fail with one of those things (FF) nearly always on the ladder and do the other thing quite decently (kiting). Completly agree.
Sorry to disagree with you. I will take your sarcasm as a sign of superiority and hope that you will continue with anecdotes and quizzes so enlighten us all.
You really don't have to be sorry for disagreeing. Especially in discussion about people's skills and abilities (like if you are better with FF or with kiting), it all comes down to personal strength's and can't be generalized. If you are better with FF than with kiting (or generally better with Protoss than with Terran, because it is easier for you), I can only tell you that skillwise you should consider switching races.
Again, you are missing the point. Like Black Gun posted, it is COMPLETLY DIFFERENT to micro in the early game with only a few production buildings to take care of and kiting in a late game situasion with 200 supply and x nr of production buildings. This is where it becomes unfair, IMO, for the Terran player.
For the record, i don't care about bio kiting as i've been playing mech since beta. I hope this makes me a little less biased in the bio vs death ball debate.
If mech were viable at the highest level(and this is a different discussion) i'd actualy be happy for bio to take a lot of micro skill (as aposed to mech needing more positioning skills). As it stands though, mid level players can't realy play bio properly and they don't really have any alternative to it (apart from chesee and "God i hope he doesn't know what to do" builds)
I don't even think mine-laying would be that much micro in SC2, with no wigging out from magic box dickery and not being able to forget where your hellions are.
On March 19 2012 02:00 huehuehuehue wrote: I think just give the other races some units that need micro and make mech viable in TvP and everything will be fine. I don't think blizzard should make T easier.
"Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
I'm not saying I disagree with you, playing mech would be cool, and not that easy either, but giving a race more options without removing any makes it easier to play, de facto. Now I'm all for making the other races harder to play. I would switch back to Protoss if it became like "teh hard mode", instead I switched to Terran as soon as it appeared they weren't doing so good :D
Honestly though, Terran changes for HotS look much more promising that the Protoss ones. Look forward to it.
Because laying mines would require micro. Goody probably can't lay mines. Give us mines it'll save mech. Oh HotS I do look foward to Shredders. Hopefully they don't cost a lot of supply
I don't know man. If it's that hard to play, people will only complain as they do right now: "My opponent just A-moved and I needed 400 APM to lay down mines, that's unfair, Terran is weak, where did all of the terrans go?" Nah, Blizzard most likely would make it very easy to play if they strengthened mech, unfortunately.
On March 19 2012 02:00 huehuehuehue wrote: I think just give the other races some units that need micro and make mech viable in TvP and everything will be fine. I don't think blizzard should make T easier.
"Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
I'm not saying I disagree with you, playing mech would be cool, and not that easy either, but giving a race more options without removing any makes it easier to play, de facto. Now I'm all for making the other races harder to play. I would switch back to Protoss if it became like "teh hard mode", instead I switched to Terran as soon as it appeared they weren't doing so good :D
Honestly though, Terran changes for HotS look much more promising that the Protoss ones. Look forward to it.
Well make mech harder & better then. But tbh i don't think mech is as easy as you think, TvT and TvZ mech is fairly difficult.
Make Tanks no smart fire, then make them do 70 damage again. Tank A: alright I got target A you get B ok? Tank B: That's stupid let's just blast them together it's only manly that way. Besides we got the vultures to cover us with mines =D Tank C: OMG GOD SAVE US WE HAVE WARP PRISM Tank D: What Zealot drops? Where are our Goliahts/Vikings? Tank E: THE MINES SOMEBODY STOP THE MINES!!!!!! Tank F:We cannot hold (with 35+15) Tank G:Remember when we had 70 damage? Tank H: Those were the days
So ends the age of mech.
sorry for seeming like I was on drugs, I wasn't it was just.... I was bored ok?
On March 19 2012 02:00 huehuehuehue wrote: I think just give the other races some units that need micro and make mech viable in TvP and everything will be fine. I don't think blizzard should make T easier.
"Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
I'm not saying I disagree with you, playing mech would be cool, and not that easy either, but giving a race more options without removing any makes it easier to play, de facto. Now I'm all for making the other races harder to play. I would switch back to Protoss if it became like "teh hard mode", instead I switched to Terran as soon as it appeared they weren't doing so good :D
Honestly though, Terran changes for HotS look much more promising that the Protoss ones. Look forward to it.
Because laying mines would require micro. Goody probably can't lay mines. Give us mines it'll save mech. Oh HotS I do look foward to Shredders. Hopefully they don't cost a lot of supply
I don't know man. If it's that hard to play, people will only complain as they do right now: "My opponent just A-moved and I needed 400 APM to lay down mines, that's unfair, Terran is weak, where did all of the terrans go?" Nah, Blizzard most likely would make it very easy to play if they strengthened mech, unfortunately.
Then they're just terrible. Mech is the manly way to play. I still go mech in TvP even if I lose because that's the way of Terran MEN.
It's pretty simple, really. If you have a race with a playstyle that wins tournaments consistently, you can't just buff another of its playstyles straight up.
Which isn't to say that you can't play around with some changes as part of a larger, holistic rebalancing.
On March 18 2012 21:33 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Those youtube videos are a joke right? Good job, you figured out that 1 zealot beats 1 hellion with no micro, did you know that 1 zealot also beats 1 roach without micro : O ionfact 20 zealtos > 20 roaches : O oh wait, untill you add platinum level micro into the mix and the roaches absolutely crush the zealots...
See its ppl like you who totally fuck balance discussions with your faulty logic, and awful comparisions.... stop it.
You clearly didn't read or missed the beginning of the conversation. Previously in the thread people were saying blue flame hellions beat zealots without micro. He said they were wrong. Then the specifics of the engagement were questioned ie hellion number and hellion positioning. He proved that hellions lost regardless of the situation (unmicroed) by linking videos where it was clearly tested. If anything he was clearing up the thread from misinformation. Obviously its not a real game situation, but it wasn't meant to be.
Why discuss fallacy then? Obviously if those 20 hellions were micro'd he'd most likely max lose 1 hellion for 20 zealots, do I have to make a youtube video to convey that or can we all agree? So what is the point of arguing such claims to begin with? At relatively high masters, I've played players like vVvRuff (if anyone knows him, he is notorious for 1 base allins) and on the games where he eventually took his natural (the few) he had a composition of hellion/marine/rauder/medvac/ghost and it decimated my chargelot/archon/3colo/blink/templar army due to positioning and how he utilized his hellions...
Mech isn't "easier". As well protoss isn't "easy". Both just require a different type of skill compared to Bio, which required a high level of unit control skill. Mech and Toss involve composition, positioning, and other strategic choices over unit micro.
Mech (if implemented) is not easier, it's just less fragile and somewhat less frustrating to play. Same with Mech vs Bio in TvT. This is good for mid-high level players who are playing for fun and don't have the time to perfect high APM Bio play.
If you are meching with just Hellions you are doing it wrong. Zealots run in EMP !!!!! then they eat some tank Shells, YUM! Eat that mouthless freaks! Then you roast them and give them a big hug cuz Hellions suck and are only good as buffering. You don't really like them so you make them hug zealots while they eat more shells. YUM! then you like go your thors that starts like ripping their shit up because they lost most of their zealots, and Thors are like yo i don't give a shit! because there is like SCVs around repairing. Oh yeah if they got HTs you gotta EMP them. And then you are like OH SHIT IMMORTALS~!!! Get me them some 250s. and so Immortals die. all while Stalkers eat some delicious Siege shells and can't shoot because Ravens are like the best unit. and rally more tanks and stuff and Colossus get shot down by vikings because some how you have them. And you snipe that observer with a scan and Banshees are like You got nothing on me! and you win.
Sounds great on paper. Give me a few month to put it into practice though. I am pretty sure it's doable.
On March 19 2012 02:19 ZenithM wrote: "Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
Mech is not easier to play than other styles in TvT and TvZ - if anything it's harder. It may not require as much multitasking, but positioning becomes everything, as well as scouting to have time to rearrange your composition.
Protoss as a race have more available to them than T or Z to deal with mech. Making mech viable will NOT make TvP easy. It would just be nice to have options other than bio.
On March 19 2012 02:19 ZenithM wrote: "Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
Mech is not easier to play than other styles in TvT and TvZ - if anything it's harder. It may not require as much multitasking, but positioning becomes everything, as well as scouting to have time to rearrange your composition.
Protoss as a race have more available to them than T or Z to deal with mech. Making mech viable will NOT make TvP easy. It would just be nice to have options other than bio.
Actually... Mech requires above all, the most multitasking lol, people and there opinions! Blasphemy
lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead.
On March 19 2012 02:19 ZenithM wrote: "Make mech viable" is actually equivalent for me to "make T easier" honestly. You want a doom army that can rape the Protoss army lategame without much micro. Assuming mech works, it's not the most mechanically demanding build in the game (aka Goody's existence).
Mech is not easier to play than other styles in TvT and TvZ - if anything it's harder. It may not require as much multitasking, but positioning becomes everything, as well as scouting to have time to rearrange your composition.
Protoss as a race have more available to them than T or Z to deal with mech. Making mech viable will NOT make TvP easy. It would just be nice to have options other than bio.
Actually... Mech requires above all, the most multitasking lol, people and there opinions! Blasphemy
Whether it does or does not was not my point there.
LoneStarClash DeMuslim vs Bling is on right now. Game 1: DeMuslim wins two max vs max engagements ending up 20-30 supply ahead each time but just can't push thanks to warpins, snipes a fresh expo and DT shrine, Bling's macro is terrible banking 3k and yet he wins one engagement and it's gg.
On March 19 2012 03:02 SupLilSon wrote: lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead.
Exactly, it was so sad to see that a Protoss playing that badly could beat a Terran as good as DeMuslim.
lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead.
oops spoilers
I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information.
lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead.
oops spoilers
I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information.
It's just the way foreigner play works. Both max out very early with no agression but maybe 1 drop for Terran to "do like the Koreans". Then they watch the other army, dancing around on the map convinced that they can't engage and that it's the "safe way" to play the game. Suddenly one guy loses track of his army and a battle ensues. Protoss has 4k/2k banked up and 20 warpgates, and weirdly rolls over the Terran, regardless of the first battle's result.
I'm a bit exagerating, but that's always the foreigner mindset when I watch them play.
Yes the game was very silly. It made Protoss look so stupidly strong. It's true though, you can't push against toss with only a 20-40 supply lead because of warp in. However if you lose an engagement it's all over. This would only be fair if terrans max army was stronger then protoss's (like BW), but it is not.
This may not be why Demuslim lost, could have been many other reasons, but the game did look silly.
However it should noted that if P had a large resource advantage, and they were trading max army's, it means Demuslim was behind in resources by that amount. If he was not behind, had pushed at 200 when both players had low minerals, Toss would not have the resources to warp in 40 supply worth of units.
lol. Did anyone just see Demuslim vs BlinG in Lonestar Clash? BlinG takes the game after 2 failed attacks and terrible macro, floating 3k/2k while Demuslims macro is impeccable with a significant worker lead.
oops spoilers
I am going to need to see a VOD of that, because the game needs to get to a serious point of crazy if a protoss is floating 2k gas. There would have to be way more that 2 attacks for the game to even get to that point. I don't doubt that both things happened, but I need more information.
The game literally just happened. IDK where the VODs are, they prolly aren't up yet. Demuslim just tweeted afterwards "Protoss is actually pretty bullshit."
EPT
