... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Uh go ahead....
All 3 scenarios we discussed:
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
On March 18 2012 23:02 NMRemorse wrote: ... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
oh thanks! I was hoping when someone will reveal all the tvp secrets and explain to all us noobies how to play, so the secret is to not make marauders, I wonder how no one thought of that!!!!
Amazing idea Sir! Now I shall go make marines and ghosts and quickly dominate everyone.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote: [quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
hellions without ANY Micro... that just makes no sense at all
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote: [quote] Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
hellions without ANY Micro... that just makes no sense at all
Everyone knows that the hellions insane speed is just so you can run to a location really fast and then promptly hit the hold command. I mean...what else could it be used for right?
On March 18 2012 23:29 -_- wrote: Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Yes, this X1000. The video was a response to a very specific discussion.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote: [quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
On March 18 2012 23:55 GoonFFS wrote: this thread is hilarious. Terran tears are the best tears
If you're not going to bother reading the thread at all, don't post. Trolling when you're relatively new is never a good idea to kick off your community involvement.
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote: [quote] Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
On March 18 2012 23:02 NMRemorse wrote: ... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
oh thanks! I was hoping when someone will reveal all the tvp secrets and explain to all us noobies how to play, so the secret is to not make marauders, I wonder how no one thought of that!!!!
Amazing idea Sir! Now I shall go make marines and ghosts and quickly dominate everyone.
Thanks a ton buddy!
Nono, beasty you got it all wrong. Hellions are appearently the answer to all protoss units. You will see how hellions will absolutely demolish not only chargelots (which they don't, as I've already proven earlier), but also collossi, stalkers, stomp forcefields, take no damage from storms or archons and just win easily.... in a mod where hellions are invincible with 5x damage against everything that is.
Strange how much attention that hellion video got. Someone repeatedly claimed that hellions unmicroed beat zealots. The video just show otherwise. End of story.
The video was not made to prove that hellions suck against protoss. They just do.. doesn't need any proof anyway.
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
I suggest you do the same. The videos present you pretty much the biggest problem in terran gameplay in general. Your units dont do shit against anything, without micro. Thats goes not just for hellions, but every frikkin unit. Comparing that to forcefields (had a good laugh, thank you) its, well, at least "naive".
Yeah, microed Hellions with a lot of space would devour the zealots. So? You dont have the luxury to kite zealots in a big fight. Protoss a-moves his army into yours, and goes back to macro. A terran has to rotate like a tornado with at least 250apm+ to beat "a-leftclick". Even your "counterarguments" are wrong, lings have to be microed vs stalker (especially earlygame) to surround them. Smartcasting forcefields has nothing to do with real micro. At all. It doesnt even need high apm, you could CLICK them vs T without using a hotkey and it still would be enough.
So, conclusion: yeah. Hellions can roast zealots. In theory. In theory, a warp-engine would be possible in reallife (the math proves it). Problem is, [i] theres no practical way to do it. Unless of course you want to sac the whole rest of your army, because you kited zealots - while collossi and every other a-move unit just smashes the rest of your unmicroed army.
On March 18 2012 23:55 GoonFFS wrote: this thread is hilarious. Terran tears are the best tears
If you're not going to bother reading the thread at all, don't post. Trolling when you're relatively new is never a good idea to kick off your community involvement.
You kidding me? I'm not trolling, i'm not even close to new and this doesn't apply as community involvement at all
I can think of several places that needs someone playing Jesus more than TL forums
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
The whole point was that people said "why don't you just make hellions since they eat zealots alive as they charge forward". Now it has been proven that even without colossus, stalker, archon or hightemplar support Hellions are forced to kite zealots even more so than marines are. This is the unit that people claim to be the answer to fighting zealots and it's worse than marines at it. Not to mention that blueflame hellions in a deathball vs deathball do hardly any damage when attacking something that aint light (only zealots and the occational hightemplar if you manage to run through their colossus line without dying).
It is easy to say that hellion is good versus light units and it sure is, as long as the light unit have low hp and dies in an attack or two since the attackspeed of the hellion is horrible.
On March 19 2012 00:07 Napoleon53 wrote: Strange how much attention that hellion video got. Someone repeatedly claimed that hellions unmicroed beat zealots. The video just show otherwise. End of story.
The video was not made to prove that hellions suck against protoss. They just do.. doesn't need any proof anyway.
You seem to be the only person here with some common sense. The video simply shows that unmicroed hellions don't ever beat chargelots. It was just uploaded to refute figo's claim that they would, he said that at least 5 or 6 times and I got tired of it.
On March 19 2012 00:07 Napoleon53 wrote: Strange how much attention that hellion video got. Someone repeatedly claimed that hellions unmicroed beat zealots. The video just show otherwise. End of story.
The video was not made to prove that hellions suck against protoss. They just do.. doesn't need any proof anyway.
You seem to be the only person here with some common sense. The video simply shows that unmicroed hellions don't ever beat chargelots. It was just uploaded to refute figo's claim that they would, he said that at least 5 or 6 times and I got tired of it.
Hi ChaosTerran. Just was stopping by to say that after much more testing, you are right about 20vs20. The first time i did it the hellions won with 2 remaining. But it seems that is the best possible outcome for them, ranging from 2 hellions remaining to 11 chargelots. The battles were very random as you would expect with a-moving, depending on the luck of how each unit got caught on others. So although I wasn't lying, I see why you got so upset.
However, that is why I said maybe it gets better with higher numbers. Which it does. 30vs30 almost always goes the hellions way, the range being about 9 hellions to 18 hellions remaining at the end. But the zealots did end up winning once in the 10 times I tried it as well.
Again, any unmicroed numbers are super volatile because of how important unit position is to both melee units and line splash units. But the fact is that chargelots cannot get any better with micro (in fact a recent patch now makes charge cancel when you try to control the fast-moving zealots). On the other hand, hellions get multiple times better with simple stutter micro. It's definitely a good enough reason to at least bring hellions up in a discussion.
The question of what to do about chargelots was asked. And because hellions deal with chargelots much more easily (APM efficiently) than MMM, I brought them up. Especially since we were talking about how lower level terrans were dropping off due to how hard it is to micro against chargelots. It was an alternative for those who do not have the micro to control MMM perfectly.
People can take it or leave it. My goal wasn't to revolutionize the TvP matchup at the GSL level, it was to give struggling players a suggestion.
Edit: I just watched the videos, and you didn't move the hellions at all. A-moving one side and hold-positioning with the other is not equal ground, as the back hellions could not fire the entire time, and also could not form a natural concave. That could also be where the discrepancies arose from.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote: [quote] Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote: [quote] Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
I suggest you do the same. The videos present you pretty much the biggest problem in terran gameplay in general. Your units dont do shit against anything, without micro. Thats goes not just for hellions, but every frikkin unit. Comparing that to forcefields (had a good laugh, thank you) its, well, at least "naive".
Yeah, microed Hellions with a lot of space would devour the zealots. So? You dont have the luxury to kite zealots in a big fight. Protoss a-moves his army into yours, and goes back to macro. A terran has to rotate like a tornado with at least 250apm+ to beat "a-leftclick". Even your "counterarguments" are wrong, lings have to be microed vs stalker (especially earlygame) to surround them. Smartcasting forcefields has nothing to do with real micro. At all. It doesnt even need high apm, you could CLICK them vs T without using a hotkey and it still would be enough.
So, conclusion: yeah. Hellions can roast zealots. In theory. In theory, a warp-engine would be possible in reallife (the math proves it). Problem is, [i] theres no practical way to do it. Unless of course you want to sac the whole rest of your army, because you kited zealots - while collossi and every other a-move unit just smashes the rest of your unmicroed army.
let's play a quiz game I call: the answer is micro! This episode will be about Protoss (vs Terran) gameplay. (It's pretty easy, though in this thread one gets to the point to believe that some Terran players simply won't be able to answer those questions correctly)
1) Marines beat stalkers (and zealots) early on in a move duels (later on even harder, but that's not a realistic scenario most of the time). Question: How come Protoss pressures Terran with stalkers at that periode of time? 2) MMM (or just MM) demolish any kind of Protoss Gateway (or gateway + Immortal or gateway + void ray) allin, bunkers make this difference even bigger. So how come, there are Protoss "Immortal busts" or 6-8gates or blink allins etc against bunkered Terrans? 3) Marines beat any Protoss nonsplash composition early on on amove, so how come that Protoss can defend against such Terran pressure/allin strategies at that time? 4) Casters on a-move don't do anything apart from attack (if they can), so how come that storms and FFs occur in battles? 5) In bigger army compositions, melee units like zealots tend to get stuck behind the other units, so how come that most of the time we see zealots in the front of the other units?
3) Marines beat any Protoss nonsplash composition early on on amove, so how come that Protoss can defend against such Terran pressure/allin strategies at that time
marines dont beat equall value of zealots on a-move?
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
[quote]
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Thanks you very much for the videos. Can I suggest another scenario? 100 templar against 1 Marine. Micro both sides of the battle in the same way you did in the above videos. I don't want to jump the gun, but if 15,000 gas and 5,000 minerals loses to 50 minerals, I think we can both agree something is very much wrong with the matchup.
Edit: Looking back, there may have been an argument about unmicroed chargelots against unmicroed hellion. While this would be a stupid argument, completely unrelated to Starcraft 2 balance, if that was the argument you were having, your videos do make some sense.
Excuse me? all the "protoss" does in that situation is a-move, why should the terran HAVE to micro to win if he has the "counter unit" hellion
Uhm thats the dumbest argument ever? If a protoss is fighting lings with stalkers why does he have to micro while the Z can just A move?! Why do i have to micro my sentries to place my "counter Z" forcefields? Quit being stupid plz and get back on topic.
I suggest you do the same. The videos present you pretty much the biggest problem in terran gameplay in general. Your units dont do shit against anything, without micro. Thats goes not just for hellions, but every frikkin unit. Comparing that to forcefields (had a good laugh, thank you) its, well, at least "naive".
Yeah, microed Hellions with a lot of space would devour the zealots. So? You dont have the luxury to kite zealots in a big fight. Protoss a-moves his army into yours, and goes back to macro. A terran has to rotate like a tornado with at least 250apm+ to beat "a-leftclick". Even your "counterarguments" are wrong, lings have to be microed vs stalker (especially earlygame) to surround them. Smartcasting forcefields has nothing to do with real micro. At all. It doesnt even need high apm, you could CLICK them vs T without using a hotkey and it still would be enough.
So, conclusion: yeah. Hellions can roast zealots. In theory. In theory, a warp-engine would be possible in reallife (the math proves it). Problem is, [i] theres no practical way to do it. Unless of course you want to sac the whole rest of your army, because you kited zealots - while collossi and every other a-move unit just smashes the rest of your unmicroed army.
let's play a quiz game I call: the answer is micro! This episode will be about Protoss (vs Terran) gameplay. (It's pretty easy, though in this thread one gets to the point to believe that some Terran players simply won't be able to answer those questions correctly)
1) Marines beat stalkers (and zealots) early on in a move duels (later on even harder, but that's not a realistic scenario most of the time). Question: How come Protoss pressures Terran with stalkers at that periode of time? 2) MMM (or just MM) demolish any kind of Protoss Gateway (or gateway + Immortal or gateway + void ray) allin, bunkers make this difference even bigger. So how come, there are Protoss "Immortal busts" or 6-8gates or blink allins etc against bunkered Terrans? 3) Marines beat any Protoss nonsplash composition early on on amove, so how come that Protoss can defend against such Terran pressure/allin strategies at that time? 4) Casters on a-move don't do anything apart from attack (if they can), so how come that storms and FFs occur in battles? 5) In bigger army compositions, melee units like zealots tend to get stuck behind the other units, so how come that most of the time we see zealots in the front of the other units?
Sentry guardian shield makes gateway units decent in a move battles and FF makes bunkers less efective. Zealots are good in late game because of basic unit positioning.
If you are trying to implay that these situations are the same with needing to kite half the map to make mmm (or hellions) good, then you are wrong. One click micro (unit positioning, spells, etc ) is completly different from constant kiting. Most people can do one of these with resonable succes while they have big trouble with the other until they reach a certain skill level.
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