On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
On March 18 2012 15:58 Supah wrote: How do you guys fare when you do that Viking/Colossus/Bioball/Stalker dance? It seems like everyone just makes their ball, and then smashes them together. Do you guys try to pick off what you can? Send out a cloaked Ghost for EMP preemptively?
What are you asking, the easiest way to micro against a deathball? Ideally you want to get preemptive EMPS and pot shot the enemy colossus with your vikings so they go down that much quicker when the engagement starts.
that's not even the hardest part about late game battles. It's the fact that the toss will warp in 20 zealots and have instant reinforcements. It snowballs quickly and a slight lead will turn into a massive victory for the toss because of continual reinforcements.
Right, the reason I asked seems to be that Terrans describe the fights as if they just A move into the army, all Colossus still at full health, Stalkers still have Blink, etc.
As a Protoss, unless it is actually 4+ bases, those gigantic warpins just don't happen. Even beyond that, if you take out the AoE during the big engagement, Zealots unsupported are rather weak against stuttering Marauders with Medivacs. And even then, back out, heal up, then go back in when you're at better health. The big siege units will not be ready, and you'll have the advantage in between warpins. A waiting period of 10 seconds can be huge. There's no reason to attack as soon as the Zealots warp in. I can't really state it with solid evidence, but just from what I've noticed, when engagements "trade" OK in value (assuming the Toss doesn't survive the fight losing all Gateway units, and keeping Colossus or a decent amount of HTs/Arhcons), when a Terran has decent Medivac retention, you can start being aggressive and poking ASAP, because Toss doesn't have that cost effective HT/Colossus for support.
On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time.
If only...
So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post...
Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did.
Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight.
Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Look man don't want to be a dick, but ANYONE who has played Terran above even, platinum, can tell you lategame helions are utter garbage vs chargelots, and on top of that their even worse vs everything else and a major waste of supply. Even BEFORE BFH nerf they were terrible vs zealots, even without charge they still take forevever to kill unless you line all your zealots in a perfect line.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL
Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Uh go ahead....
All 3 scenarios we discussed:
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did.
Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight.
Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote: [quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice. [/QUOTE] Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.[/QUOTE]
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL [/QUOTE] Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade[/QUOTE] -> quoted part, sorry messed that up
Hellions actually won pretty convincingly with 10 hellions remaining (absolutely unmicroed) so maybe fig was playing the pre-patch version :D
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL
Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade
It doesn't matter much. The bottom line is, while you might think hellions are good vs chargelots on paper, the reality is, it's not practical. How are hellions supposed to kill 1 archon, let along 5 or more plus collosus, stalkers, immortals, etc..
You need to micro them, and by micro, the only thing you can do is kite. You kite with hellions so that the ai lines all the targets up so you can maximize damage.
However, you cant kite in a major engagement because the rest of your army will die while you are doing it. If you are going mech, you are trying to use hellions as a shield to your tanks. If you kite with the hellions, you are essentially using your tanks as a shield for your hellions.
Until battlemode in HoTS, hellions cannot be used in direct engagements vs toss.
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote: [quote] Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL
Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade
It doesn't matter much. The bottom line is, while you might think hellions are good vs chargelots on paper, the reality is, it's not practical. How are hellions supposed to kill 1 archon, let along 5 or more plus collosus, stalkers, immortals, etc..
I just wanted to know how good they were pre-patch. I honestly don't think that hellions are good in TvP for anything more than tanking stalker and archon shots, as they are absolutely destroyed by basically everything else Protoss has.
Hellions actually won pretty convincingly with 10 hellions remaining (absolutely unmicroed) so maybe fig was playing the pre-patch version :D
haha yeah. I remember testing a while ago; with each upgrade up to BFH damage level the Hellions take 1 less attack to kill a chargelot. Unfortunately Protoss armor and shield upgrades nullify this in the late-game.
On March 18 2012 16:28 Supah wrote: Erm.. would a video replacing the Zealots with a Ling surround look any different?
Yes? lings would get roasted lol, 20 hellions unmicroed beat 40 lings any time of the day, and they would kill a fair amount of lings if it's against 80 lings, but hey what do I have a unit tester for. brb lol.
Just tried it, 80 lings vs 20 hellions with BFH unmicroed (lings had 1-1) 180degree surround (so 50% surround as that is about as realistic as it gets and comparable with the zealot video) and 5 hellions died, 15 survived. Hellions are sick good vs. lings, but suck against chargelots. That's an actual logical conclusion after we have some data now. video recorded btw if you want evidence.
On March 18 2012 16:28 Supah wrote: Erm.. would a video replacing the Zealots with a Ling surround look any different?
Yes? lings would get roasted lol, 20 hellions unmicroed beat 40 lings any time of the day, and they would kill a fair amount of lings if it's against 80 lings, but hey what do I have a unit tester for. brb lol.
They do absolutely amazing against zerglings regardless of numbers if you have 5-8 or more if you have BFH. With redflame you would need a few more, say, 8-12
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.[/QUOTE]
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL [/QUOTE] Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade[/QUOTE] -> quoted part, sorry messed that up
Hellions actually won pretty convincingly with 10 hellions remaining (absolutely unmicroed) so maybe fig was playing the pre-patch version :D [/QUOTE]
I gave the hellions 1 1 when I did it, and I just tested it, it makes a big difference. Try it, maybe that is what Fig did?
I also just tried 3 3 vs 3 3, and it was close and the hellions would destroy the zealots with a tiny bit of micro.
Hellions do beat chargelots. This doesn't make them viable in the match though, like me and other people have said.
Battle hellions are looking pretty good right now.
EDIT: I just tried the battle hellions in a HoTS unit tester. Might be broken as of now. Get plus 1 have them in front of marines and chargelots are cannon fodder.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote: [quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL [/QUOTE] Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade[/QUOTE] -> quoted part, sorry messed that up
Hellions actually won pretty convincingly with 10 hellions remaining (absolutely unmicroed) so maybe fig was playing the pre-patch version :D [/QUOTE]
I gave the hellions 1 1 when I did it, and I just tested it, it makes a big difference. Try it, maybe that is what Fig did?
I also just tried 3 3 vs 3 3, and it was close and the hellions would destroy the zealots with a tiny bit of micro.
Hellions do beat chargelots. This doesn't make them viable in the match though, like me and other people have said.
Battle hellions are looking pretty good right now. [/QUOTE]
Right, but let's not be unrealistic, if you actually get upgrades for hellions you are probably going mech (or you will have unupgraded bio, w/e..) and mech play vs. protoss is pretty meh. The battle hellion will actually help with mech and it will hopefully be a viable option in HOTS. will see. But my point simply is that right now as it is, hellions are not good mid or lategame tvp. And I think we all agree on that.
Just to give some feedback about mtw|naruto, lastshadow and day[9] advices.
I play random at silver-gold level. I have been losing all my TvP these last weeks/months (almost all my matches as T actually). I could win my first match since a looong time by following their advices. I didn't manage to get the ghosts though (i was starting production when the big battle happened) more marines lots of oc planetary fortresses it seems to work at gold level too.
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote: [quote] Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Was it horizontal or vertical? I think he meant a horizontal line.
Hellions lose in both scenarios with around 10 lots left. Just tried, makes no difference. I even had the chargelots clumped for the most part and the hellions were perfectly positioned LOL
Ouch. I got an idea, just to test something; Why don't you try with the Hellions at +3 attack and the Chargelots at +1+1 shields and armor? Just to see what it was like before the BFH nerf, since Hellions get +2 vs light per attack upgrade[/QUOTE] -> quoted part, sorry messed that up
Hellions actually won pretty convincingly with 10 hellions remaining (absolutely unmicroed) so maybe fig was playing the pre-patch version :D [/QUOTE]
I gave the hellions 1 1 when I did it, and I just tested it, it makes a big difference. Try it, maybe that is what Fig did?
I also just tried 3 3 vs 3 3, and it was close and the hellions would destroy the zealots with a tiny bit of micro.
Hellions do beat chargelots. This doesn't make them viable in the match though, like me and other people have said.
Battle hellions are looking pretty good right now. [/QUOTE]
Right, but let's not be unrealistic, if you actually get upgrades for hellions you are probably going mech (or you will have unupgraded bio, w/e..) and mech play vs. protoss is pretty meh. The battle hellion will actually help with mech and it will hopefully be a viable option in HOTS. will see. But my point simply is that right now as it is, hellions are not good mid or lategame tvp. And I think we all agree on that.[/QUOTE]
If you would go hellions, you would probably get the +1 ground instead of +1 air, but otherwise yes, the 3 3 would never happen.
On a side note, mech deathballs are looking pretty good for T right now in the HOTS tester, can't wait for the beta.
On March 18 2012 16:57 freakhill wrote: Just to give some feedback about mtw|naruto, lastshadow and day[9] advices.
I play random at silver-gold level. I have been losing all my TvP these last weeks/months (almost all my matches as T actually). I could win my first match since a looong time by following their advices. I didn't manage to get the ghosts though (i was starting production when the big battle happened) more marines lots of oc planetary fortresses it seems to work at gold level too.
That's good to hear man. I think we need more terran tutorials out there, sadly most casters either play protoss or zerg, there really aren't any casters that play terran and the only terran tutorials I can think of are dapollo's but I don't think they aren't as useful for low level players as everyone thinks they are, because he is a master league player playing in bronze league, it's obvious that he will beat his opponents with pure mechanics and not strategy. I think artosis should play terran again and really focus on terran tutorials and stream terran gameplay with replay analysis, because artosis actually streams master league gameplay and doesn't just own bronze league players (any strategy will seem good if you play bronze leaguers with master league mechanics, like apollo does), now I appreciate what apollo is doing but I think it's the wrong approach in my opinion.
Artosis even said that he might switch back to terran this year, I just pray to god he does, maybe he'll do some mech tutorials... man the day artosis switches back to T will be the happiest day of my life :D
On March 18 2012 16:33 Rowrin wrote: The problem with hellions is this:
You need to micro them, and by micro, the only thing you can do is kite. You kite with hellions so that the ai lines all the targets up so you can maximize damage.
However, you cant kite in a major engagement because the rest of your army will die while you are doing it. If you are going mech, you are trying to use hellions as a shield to your tanks. If you kite with the hellions, you are essentially using your tanks as a shield for your hellions.
Until battlemode in HoTS, hellions cannot be used in direct engagements vs toss.
Got it in one, kiting with hellions is useless when going mech specifically because your tanks are fucking static by their very nature and you very quickly kite past them. I don't know, could they be integrated into a bioball? I don't see an immediately obvious reason why not. I've done it sometimes, not mass mass hellion but mixing enough of them in to do some real damage to zealots.
EPT
