Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 76

On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:



So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post...

On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:


Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did.

Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight.

On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:

Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.

On March 18 2012 13:39 OtoshimonoU wrote:


Please stop posting in this thread.

On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:

Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.

On March 18 2012 14:55 ChaosTerran wrote:


not sure if troll or actually serious?

On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:

Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.

On March 18 2012 15:01 Blazinghand wrote:


I have extensive experience experimenting with Hellions in TvP. Under certain specific and limited circumstances, they can be useful. However, I feel that their use becomes sharply limited as the game goes on. Although they are a strong unit in specific situations against zealots (early game, no charge, etc), even with Blue Flame, they struggle to fight chargelots lategame except with very large numbers on both sides, when their distinctive shape for splash damage becomes more useful.

However, in the presence of supporting units such as archons and colossi, chargelots become much more effective. Hellions, on the other hand, become LESS effective when coupled with slower bio or mech units-- because they can't use their kiting fully. the chargelots will end up attacking the slower bio or mech units, which means the chief method whereby hellions mitigate damage is effectively neutralized.

However, in specific build orders/openers, 1 base and 2 base play and allins, hellions can be a useful, even devestatingly useful unit. In this respect I find them to be much like banshees and thors in TvP-- useful in limited circumstances in the early game, fun in general, but declining in viability as the game wears on.

On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:


You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.

Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.

On March 18 2012 15:09 ChaosTerran wrote:


Which is exactly the point. Hellions can be used in certain all-ins just like pretty much any unit in the game can be used for certain all-ins, but lategame they get absolutely destroyed by the protoss deathball and are even worse than marines. They have no upgrades, have lower DPS than stimmed marines and cost more. Not even on paper you could argue that hellions are better to have than marines. The problem is that the only terran units that could counter chargelots are light units (marines, hellions) but both have ridiculous drawbacks (hellions are mechanical so no bio upgrades effect them, they are relatively expensive and die instantely do collossi splash due to being light units, marines have very little health anyway and are light on top of that which makes them not only terrible against collossi splash damage but also storm, storm and collossi destroy marines, but marines are the only way to really deal with chargelots lategame, the alternative - hellions - is too expensive, doesnt get affected by the same upgrades and has a different movement speed than the rest of the army, which means you can never kite all your units as a ball). His suggestion is simply ridiculous, go to the unit tester and try that shit out before you post complete nonsense on the forum. All this theorycrafting by people who have obviously never even used the unit they are talking about is extremely annoying.

On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:


You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.

Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.

On March 18 2012 13:39 OtoshimonoU wrote:


Please stop posting in this thread.

On March 18 2012 15:09 ChaosTerran wrote:


Which is exactly the point. Hellions can be used in certain all-ins just like pretty much any unit in the game can be used for certain all-ins, but lategame they get absolutely destroyed by the protoss deathball and are even worse than marines. They have no upgrades, have lower DPS than stimmed marines and cost more. Not even on paper you could argue that hellions are better to have than marines. The problem is that the only terran units that could counter chargelots are light units (marines, hellions) but both have ridiculous drawbacks (hellions are mechanical so no bio upgrades effect them, they are relatively expensive and die instantely do collossi splash due to being light units, marines have very little health anyway and are light on top of that which makes them not only terrible against collossi splash damage but also storm, storm and collossi destroy marines, but marines are the only way to really deal with chargelots lategame, the alternative - hellions - is too expensive, doesnt get affected by the same upgrades and has a different movement speed than the rest of the army, which means you can never kite all your units as a ball). His suggestion is simply ridiculous, go to the unit tester and try that shit out before you post complete nonsense on the forum. All this theorycrafting by people who have obviously never even used the unit they are talking about is extremely annoying.

edit: I can tell you exactly how I would fix TvP.

I'd add an upgrade in the fusion core that gives tanks +25 damage vs protoss shields. (that way it wouldnt affect TvZ and make tanks OP vs Zerg and it would not help the 1/1/1 push either since it's only available mid-lategame on at least 2 bases I would say).
I'd make charge manual cast and not autocast
I'd remove auto-surround from chargelots so that protoss players have to micro them in order to get a full surround on terran units.

Done.

On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:

It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.

And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.

On March 18 2012 15:25 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Plz trust me when I say that hellions do NOT work. It's been tried by lots of people, they simply die too fast and shoot too slow / ineffeciently for them to be worth it in big fights.

Plus you need a 4th upgrade path (infantry armor and attack, air attack for vikings and now vehicle attack for hellions).

Not worth it sadly, nor is it even that effective.

On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:


THIS IS SUCH A LIE.

I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.

On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:

Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?

On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:


And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.

And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.