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On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:On March 18 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time.
If only... So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
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On March 18 2012 13:39 OtoshimonoU wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:On March 18 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2012 11:18 Aquila- wrote:
Ladder today was fun: 1 Terran, 2 Zergs and about 10 Protoss...I don't even know how to play TvT anymore lol.
Imo Chargelots need a change. They don't require micro while forcing a ton of micro from Terran. Also, they cost only minerals, can be reinforced during a battle and with armor upgrades they simply don't die... Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time. If only... So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. Please stop posting in this thread.
I agree. No one in their right mind thinks 0-0 hellions can do anything against 3-3 gateway units. Are we supposed to get factory upgrades, bio upgrades, and air upgrades? wtf.
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Get all the upgrades! o/
But no. Mech definitely sucks vs Protoss. lol
Although Marine/Tank/Banshee is surprisingly good. Try that composition out.
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They should have the Collosus designated as an air unit, so toss has to get air upgrades to make them effective. Take that.
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On March 18 2012 15:49 FinalForm wrote:
They should have the Collosus designated as an air unit, so toss has to get air upgrades to make them effective. Take that.
They should remove the Collosus or make it more like tanks where you actually have to think tactically about positioning and timing while using them.
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On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:On March 18 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2012 11:18 Aquila- wrote:
Ladder today was fun: 1 Terran, 2 Zergs and about 10 Protoss...I don't even know how to play TvT anymore lol.
Imo Chargelots need a change. They don't require micro while forcing a ton of micro from Terran. Also, they cost only minerals, can be reinforced during a battle and with armor upgrades they simply don't die... Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time. If only... So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
User was warned for this post
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How do you guys fare when you do that Viking/Colossus/Bioball/Stalker dance? It seems like everyone just makes their ball, and then smashes them together. Do you guys try to pick off what you can? Send out a cloaked Ghost for EMP preemptively?
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On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:On March 18 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2012 11:18 Aquila- wrote:
Ladder today was fun: 1 Terran, 2 Zergs and about 10 Protoss...I don't even know how to play TvT anymore lol.
Imo Chargelots need a change. They don't require micro while forcing a ton of micro from Terran. Also, they cost only minerals, can be reinforced during a battle and with armor upgrades they simply don't die... Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time. If only... So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
Unfortunately BFH take even more APM to micro well, and the APM and Resources used to make the BFH' would be better used to make more Marines, Marauders, and to micro them better.
I don't think that Blizzard will nerf Bio in HotS, since they want both compositions to work well. Personally I think that it will remain viable, but a ton of players will switch to Mech because:
- They want to use the shiny new units.
- They're tired of Bio.
- They have a lot of trouble using Bio effectively.
It's also not OP, and Bio doesn't synergize very well with Mech except in TvZ where the huge amounts of splash damage from Tanks and Thors deal so well with Banelings and Mutalisks, while Marines do really well against Zerglings.
In TvZ we'll have to wait to see the balance changes. Hopefully we'll see at least a partial revert to the Ghost nerf, and maybe a buff to something like the Raven or Overlord Drops.
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On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:
[quote]
So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on. So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
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On March 18 2012 15:51 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:49 FinalForm wrote:
They should have the Collosus designated as an air unit, so toss has to get air upgrades to make them effective. Take that. They should remove the Collosus or make it more like tanks where you actually have to think tactically about positioning and timing while using them.
I play protoss and I'd be pretty happy with replacing the colossus with something more interesting and that required more thought/skill and retuning protoss mid/late game. Or redesigning it and retuning. Not convinced it's imbalanced, but it is definitely boring, and I'd prefer something that I can micro, or at least play a positioning game with (like tanks; what you mentioned).
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On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:On March 18 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, if only terran had a really good unit that cost only minerals that came really early in the game. Something with a range attack with really high DPS. And maybe an ability that allowed it to move really fast for a short period of time.
If only... So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass. Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games. The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient. I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:
[quote]
Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did.
Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on. So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else. Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
User was warned for this post
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There are ways to deal with zealots that don't involve skewing your composition that you can see in a fair number of pro games. One of them is real easy to use: the flying factory. Besides eating stalker shots, you can try landing it to block off most of a choke point.
Terran really has a ridiculous number of little tricks they can use without having to spend a lot of in game resources, it's usually just a matter of spending out of game resources. When they rebalance terran and the other races for HotS they'll need to keep this kind of thing in mind or it'll be a mess.
But don't stop whining about compositional balance at low skill levels in the meantime. If it involves complaining about your opponent a-moving or not being able to a-move your opponent, it probably belongs in this thread here.
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On March 18 2012 15:58 Supah wrote:
How do you guys fare when you do that Viking/Colossus/Bioball/Stalker dance? It seems like everyone just makes their ball, and then smashes them together. Do you guys try to pick off what you can? Send out a cloaked Ghost for EMP preemptively?
What are you asking, the easiest way to micro against a deathball? Ideally you want to get preemptive EMPS and pot shot the enemy colossus with your vikings so they go down that much quicker when the engagement starts.
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Just went to the unit tester and found out that 1 scv beats 1 ultralisk, then I tried 20 scvs vs 20 ultras and found that scvs still win
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On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:On March 18 2012 11:25 Aquila- wrote:
[quote]
So you suggest making mass Marine all game or what? Obviously the Protoss doesn't have only Chargelots but also splash damage. What is this post... Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did. Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass. Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games. The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient. I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored. Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys. I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then. Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:
[quote]
Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on. So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else. Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night. First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
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On March 18 2012 16:01 TheTomato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 15:58 Supah wrote:
How do you guys fare when you do that Viking/Colossus/Bioball/Stalker dance? It seems like everyone just makes their ball, and then smashes them together. Do you guys try to pick off what you can? Send out a cloaked Ghost for EMP preemptively? What are you asking, the easiest way to micro against a deathball? Ideally you want to get preemptive EMPS and pot shot the enemy colossus with your vikings so they go down that much quicker when the engagement starts.
that's not even the hardest part about late game battles. It's the fact that the toss will warp in 20 zealots and have instant reinforcements. It snowballs quickly and a slight lead will turn into a massive victory for the toss because of continual reinforcements.
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For some of the rare moments I see certain terrans mix in reapers in their composition?!??! I dont think their DPS is that great without stim? Someone explain
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On March 18 2012 16:03 FinalForm wrote:
Just went to the unit tester and found out that 1 scv beats 1 ultralisk, then I tried 20 scvs vs 20 ultras and found that scvs still win
What is this I dont even.
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This thread is definitely a dark point on Teamliquid's thread history
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On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 13:12 Talack wrote:
[quote]
Yeah it's really embarassing for the site as a whole when people post stuff like that guy did.
Chareglots are the problem because they tank SO much damage before terran can start doing "anything" about the real dps units behind the wall of chargelots. That's the issue here. When you mix in more marines they die insanely fast to collosus and storms, so you're losing a good 15-20 supply per second of the fight. Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs. You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE. Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass. Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games. The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient. I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored. Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys. I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then. On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote:
[quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech. It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful. And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech. THIS IS SUCH A LIE. I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus. Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle? And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous. And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2. Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on. So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else. Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night. First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there? If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
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