If you would go hellions, you would probably get the +1 ground instead of +1 air, but otherwise yes, the 3 3 would never happen.
On a side note, mech deathballs are looking pretty good for T right now in the HOTS tester, can't wait for the beta.
Now, they only have to fix the immobility issues vs. stalkers and warp prism backstabs, some way for terran to actually defend their bases without leaving 10 tanks behind fully sieged or else you lose your entire main once you move out...
If you would go hellions, you would probably get the +1 ground instead of +1 air, but otherwise yes, the 3 3 would never happen.
On a side note, mech deathballs are looking pretty good for T right now in the HOTS tester, can't wait for the beta.
Now, they only have to fix the immobility issues vs. stalkers and warp prism backstabs, some way for terran to actually defend their bases without leaving 10 tanks behind fully sieged or else you lose your entire main once you move out...
The warhounds seem pretty good right now. I think you can respond with warhound plus battle hellion.
If you would go hellions, you would probably get the +1 ground instead of +1 air, but otherwise yes, the 3 3 would never happen.
On a side note, mech deathballs are looking pretty good for T right now in the HOTS tester, can't wait for the beta.
Now, they only have to fix the immobility issues vs. stalkers and warp prism backstabs, some way for terran to actually defend their bases without leaving 10 tanks behind fully sieged or else you lose your entire main once you move out...
The warhounds seem pretty good right now. I think you can respond with warhound plus battle hellion.
Yeah, seems plausible. I just think the main reason mech doesn't work in WoL is the fact that it's extremely easy for protoss to transport large portions of their army from point A to point B, be it blink stalkers, warp prism warp ins or collossi over cliffs, there are so many ways to backstab the terran mech army and 1 backstab often times can cost you the entire main. But yeah, if the warhound turns out to be useful and somewhat fast (or at least not slow as hell) we might actually have a way to deal with this in time. Let's just hope, because I personally am sick of bio play, I always loved mech, I mech in TvZ and TvT but in TvP it's just hopeless.
If you would go hellions, you would probably get the +1 ground instead of +1 air, but otherwise yes, the 3 3 would never happen.
On a side note, mech deathballs are looking pretty good for T right now in the HOTS tester, can't wait for the beta.
Now, they only have to fix the immobility issues vs. stalkers and warp prism backstabs, some way for terran to actually defend their bases without leaving 10 tanks behind fully sieged or else you lose your entire main once you move out...
The warhounds seem pretty good right now. I think you can respond with warhound plus battle hellion.
Yeah, seems plausible. I just think the main reason mech doesn't work in WoL is the fact that it's extremely easy for protoss to transport large portions of their army from point A to point B, be it blink stalkers, warp prism warp ins or collossi over cliffs, there are so many ways to backstab the terran mech army and 1 backstab often times can cost you the entire main. But yeah, if the warhound turns out to be useful and somewhat fast (or at least not slow as hell) we might actually have a way to deal with this in time. Let's just hope, because I personally am sick of bio play, I always loved mech, I mech in TvZ and TvT but in TvP it's just hopeless.
That, and the fact that everything protoss can be extremely cost-effective against Mech with proper control, such as blinkstalkers vs tanks.
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Uh go ahead....
All 3 scenarios we discussed:
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
[i] If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Those youtube videos are a joke right? Good job, you figured out that 1 zealot beats 1 hellion with no micro, did you know that 1 zealot also beats 1 roach without micro : O ionfact 20 zealtos > 20 roaches : O oh wait, untill you add platinum level micro into the mix and the roaches absolutely crush the zealots...
See its ppl like you who totally fuck balance discussions with your faulty logic, and awful comparisions.... stop it.
On March 18 2012 21:33 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Those youtube videos are a joke right? Good job, you figured out that 1 zealot beats 1 hellion with no micro, did you know that 1 zealot also beats 1 roach without micro : O ionfact 20 zealtos > 20 roaches : O oh wait, untill you add platinum level micro into the mix and the roaches absolutely crush the zealots...
See its ppl like you who totally fuck balance discussions with your faulty logic, and awful comparisions.... stop it.
You clearly didn't read or missed the beginning of the conversation. Previously in the thread people were saying blue flame hellions beat zealots without micro. He said they were wrong. Then the specifics of the engagement were questioned ie hellion number and hellion positioning. He proved that hellions lost regardless of the situation (unmicroed) by linking videos where it was clearly tested. If anything he was clearing up the thread from misinformation. Obviously its not a real game situation, but it wasn't meant to be.
How are you going to micro hellions against forcefields anyway? In the deathball 200/200 fight everything is dead within 10 seconds, there is almost no time to micro, hellions have too low HP and can't be healed in fight, 20 marines/marauders>20 hellions. I liked what Naruto said about that mass ghost stuff, gonna practice that When you think about it, mass ghost seem pretty powerfull, ghosts have pretty rediculous health, with 3-3 do more damage than marines, they can EMP and when you have 20/30 ghosts you can snipe all the zealots. It's probably really hard to get and to micro, but I have 300 APM to mess around with, should be enough. Hopefully this works, thx Naruto
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote: [quote] Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 13:33 Fig wrote: [quote] Why don't you try using hellions? I guarantee you that tosses are dreading the day when terrans stop scouting with their FACTORY and start making hellions. Hellions annihilate every gateway unit except stalkers, and even then stalkers are just as bad against hellions because stalkers have super low DPS vs light units. In fact the only quick way to take out hellions is with colossi, (or phoenixes, but tosses don't go air very often vs terran, for good reason). A midgame addition of some reactored hellions would definitely solve your chargelot problems, and give you more harass, and be another way to snipe HTs.
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote: [quote] It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Exhibit A of why it's so hard to have a real discussion in this thread. Anything goes. Hellions are underpowered when they don't move. Didn't realize they were static defense.
Have you tried kiting zealots with hellions? It's not the hardest micro in the world, and the hellions smash the zealots. Especially in those huge groups.
... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
In video 2 and 3 I had music coming through my speakers and I didn't realize that (they are not in order, I first recorder 3 and then 2 and then 1) so I aplogize for that noise, just mute the video. The quality is still bad since the videos are being processed but they should be 1080p once that's finished. I did this all for you tomato and for fig. You are welcome guys <3
On March 18 2012 16:05 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 16:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:56 TheTomato wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:19 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:03 Scila wrote: [quote]
You do realize that the reason we are getting battle hellions in HOTS is exactly because they CAN'T deal with chargelots well, right? You have to micro your hellions super hard for like 20 seconds to kill off all the zealots, meanwhile your hellions and bio are dying within seconds of coming in contact with protoss AOE.
Blizzard just needs to nerf terran bio and buff mech/t3 already. That would make for such a better game instead of terran relying on Marine/marauder/medivac in TvZ and TvP the ENTIRE game and being unable to cost efficiently trade with Zerg and Protoss higher tech.
It's true that hellions do not deal with chargelots super well, but unmicroed, equal costs of BFH and 1/1 chargelots, the BFH win, and if you have time to micro, the hellions win by a lot. I was saying that hellions are much more effective against chargelots than anything else terran has, so mixing them in should help. Whether it's worth it to have another group of units with micro potential, I don't know. But at plat and diamond, where there is not a large amount of micro, they would be useful.
And I agree about the need to nerf bio. I actually figured that Blizzard would be removing the marauder when they announced the battle hellion and warhound. That way going straight bio would no longer be beefy and terrans would have something to gain by going to higher tech.
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
You need to relax, you sound like you have a stick up your ass.
Also BFH are really good against chargelots. With a slight amount of micro to prevent a full surround, they poop on charge-lots. If you go to a unit tester and just watch them a move its a toss up, depending on whether the chargelots get a random really good surround. That stupid though, you don't just a move hellions into chargelots in games.
The reason they don't work is the amount of tech to get them is just too much. You can't really mech in TvP (with in the bounds of this discussion) so the only way is bio/helion medivac. The helions just don't really fit and just make your army too fragile since they can't be healed. Its just not cost effective to get a 2 facts ( which you would need to pump out a decent number), pre ignitor and another set of upgrades. It cuts into your upgrade/viking/medivac timings too much to work out. The only way it would be viable is if the P went mass chargelots and you have god like micro to actually make the bfh cost efficient.
I remember when people tried it out before the nerf to helions, so its not like its unexplored.
Doesn't matter, he claimed that 20 chargelots lose to 20 hellions unmicroed and it was a lie. Not my fault someone else is lying here. Hellions are bad in TvP everyone knows that, Jinro said it, give it a rest guys.
I even recorded a video just to prove that 20 chargelots beat 20 BFH hellions even with only 1-1 upgrades. I didn't lie, he did, and yes liard make me angry, because they contribute nothing to the discussion and direct the discussion to a misleading conclusion (obviously when you just make up facts). So yes, I get really angry at these people, because had I not checked everyone would now think that 20 chargelots lose to 20 BFH hellions, but they don't, it's a lie and I even recorded a video, so if you really want to keep disagreeing with me then fine, I'll upload it to youtube, it's gonna be a lot of fun for me to see you apologize then.
On March 18 2012 15:59 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:45 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:44 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:39 ChaosTerran wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:34 Fig wrote:
On March 18 2012 15:30 ChaosTerran wrote: [quote]
THIS IS SUCH A LIE.
I just tried this in the unit test map. 10 BFH unmicroed vs 10 chargelots with 1/1 - 6 Chargelots survived. It wasn't even close, now stop trolling this thread. You are obviously lying, you actually pulled that one right out of your anus.
Try 20 vs 20, that's what I used. I guess hellions get better the bigger the battle?
And when will you ever have 20 hellions?? Do you have any idea how long it takes to build 20 hellions even with a reactor on the factory? And how long does it take to warp in 20 chargelots? You are absolutely ridiculous.
And by the way, I just tried 20 vs. 20 (even though this is obviously unrealistic and if you really build 20 hellions chances are you'll just get rolled by collossi, due to 40 supply being essentially useless against everything but chargelots) and 11 Chargelots survived. So yeah, keep lying, I have no idea what game you are playing but it definitely isn't Starcraft 2.
Indeed I'm not playing the same game as you, since if I do 25 BFH vs 30 chargelots, all unmicroed, the hellions win with 7 remaining. So there is something weird going on.
So now we are up to 25 hellions, eh? 50 supply of hellions... that's really interesting, why not make 100 hellions vs. 100 chargelots? Because that is completely realistic. Point is that in no realistic scenario you will have 25 hellions and if you do you will just lose to the everything else.
Please be civil. All I have done is give advice and even did tests and checked statistics for you. If you don't like the information then so be it, but stop being insulting and accusing me of lying every other sentence. I realize this is the internet, but it is also a community site for Starcraft 2, a game which it is apparent we both care about. I'll stop suggesting hellions now, because this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'm sorry for upsetting you, and hope you enjoy the rest of your night.
First of all, I didn't insult you. Second of all, you lied, hence why I called you a liar. I have evidence, should I upload it to youtube, like do you really want to go there?
If the hellions are in a line they win most of the time, if they in a ball of course they are going to lose. Hellions shoot in lines.
Just tried 20vs20 with hellions in a straight line of 2 vs 20 chargelots clumped up. 10 chargelots survived. Want me to post that video aswell? I'll post both, or will you finally give it a rest. Your choice.
Exhibit A of why it's so hard to have a real discussion in this thread. Anything goes. Hellions are underpowered when they don't move. Didn't realize they were static defense.
Have you tried kiting zealots with hellions? It's not the hardest micro in the world, and the hellions smash the zealots. Especially in those huge groups.
Think you are missing the point, or maybe i am :p
In isolation, yes, you can micro Hellions all day against Zealosts and win, ez. But in a real fight (mech vs protoss) hellions will have to actually stay in front of the Tanks. If they loose against the Zealots themselves, not even counting the dmg taken from the other P forces, they are not gonna be able to do their job (killing the Zealots and tank dmg) The fact that, unlike in BW, Zealots will be the first to reinforce and not the Hellions, makes this evern worse.
For the record, it was the hellion nerf that made GoOdy abandon mech. They are not adding the Battle Hellion to fight Zerglings BTW.
On March 18 2012 23:02 NMRemorse wrote: ... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
Aside from making assumptions about other Terrans and your anecdotal evidence, how exactly, can you conclude that?
On March 18 2012 23:02 NMRemorse wrote: ... wow, there's a lot of QQ'ing going on in this thread. Whats with all the TvP imba talk o.O... TvP is imo. pretty balanced, I'm "high" masters EU, so no I'm not some all-knowing gosu, but I can still conclude that if you understand the matchup (tvp) then it's not much harder than tvz. I just think a lot of Terrans dont understand the new tvp. IE they are all stuck on the Marouders > Everything Protoss.
oh thanks! I was hoping when someone will reveal all the tvp secrets and explain to all us noobies how to play, so the secret is to not make marauders, I wonder how no one thought of that!!!!
Amazing idea Sir! Now I shall go make marines and ghosts and quickly dominate everyone.
EPT
When you think about it, mass ghost seem pretty powerfull, ghosts have pretty rediculous health, with 3-3 do more damage than marines, they can EMP and when you have 20/30 ghosts you can snipe all the zealots. It's probably really hard to get and to micro, but I have 300 APM to mess around with, should be enough. Hopefully this works, thx Naruto 
