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Pressing Buttons is so overpowered.
Terran here, having a good ~50% winrate in all matchups. Play more instead of whining in here. Its not like the Game itself is so hard.
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On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play.
zzz... read the thread, nobody denies that terran is a good race on pro-level. Terran is just so much harder to play at low levels that people give up and change to P/Z.
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On March 12 2012 02:07 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:58 Baum wrote:On March 12 2012 01:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I said that Terran was easier to play in the past thus Protoss and Zerg had to step up their skill to compete. Good example is the Ghost. The way it was before: units were clumped up --> one EMP and Terran roflstomped a protoss army.
As it is now, protoss spread their units, move forward with a few HT to feedback ghosts and so on. I'm not saying that requires a huge amount of skill, I'm merely saying that it requires a ton more skill than before while terran basically still does the same thing (ghosts -> EMP -> try to roflstomp)
And one more popular example: the 1/1/1. How much skill does it take to hold it in comparison to executing it? That's exactly what I mean.
People like you make these threads so much worse. Posting a rhetoric question doesn't make up for the lack of truth to your statement. Sure a 111 does take a specific response but is it a difficult to execute response? Maybe at wood levels where people are sitting in their base for the first 10 minutes and then a wild 1/1/1 appears in front of their base it's easier to execute than defend it but diamond and above a 1/1/1 army is as fragile as any other terran army and a-moving it across the map will cost you the game against any smart player. You have to focus with your tanks, focus and kite with marines and do damage with your harass before the push for it to have a chance of working. I am not saying it's incredibly hard to do that but defending it isn't more difficult either. Soooo you just said "diamond and above". Well yeah. That's the level it takes to hold a 1/1/1 which is why it's easier to execute than it is to hold. Thank you for clearing that up, it's exactly what I said in my post above. You have to keep in mind that all races should be equally strong on every level. And I met my first 1/1/1s in bronze / silver soooooo yeah.
Don't take my point and make it what you want it to be. Clearly you have no facts to prove your statement but try to cover that up rhetorically. What I said was that it's easier to execute against someone who just sits in their base waiting for it to come which is a typical mistake at lower levels. Following your logic how can you possibly make the argument you made above? Have you actually experienced how hard it is to control a terran army against Protoss? Sorry to say but your post sounds incredibly ignorant.
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On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play.
If you actually read this thread before posting this I have some bad news for you..
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On March 12 2012 02:00 dde wrote:
I talked to korean pros at MLG winter areana about the current balance. Zergs believe that Protoss is too strong while terrans believe that theres no hope vs zerg in the late game due to ghost nerfs and they just find vs protoss just insaely hard for some reason (not sure why because I like to play vs protoss). Protoss players said that zerg is the op race.
That would confirm my opinion on Zerg. It's the strongest race simply because it has been balanced by Blizzard around the fact that you don't need to micro your shit and a glorious A-move is enough in most cases.
The whole zerglings + double melee upgrades in ZvT is based around this. Much easier than to micro mutalisks, you surround (move command then an A-move, basically) a Terran army and it's gg.
Once you get a good game sense going, to deflect pressure moves and various all ins without sacrificing much economy, you're instantly a good player with Zerg, you make the right units at the right time, and annihilate your opponents army while re-macroing and eating French fries. It's not easy to get to this point, but it's very easy to win once you know the game a bit.
And once you realize that you actually CAN micro your units as Zerg, like Stephano and DRG do, and that it makes you rape your opponent even harder, well, you get the strongest race in the game.
Mark my words and wait for HOTS, they will be all the more true.
Edit: replaced "reproducing" with "re-macroing" ;D
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Terran is the weakest race late game....Terran relies on their opponent to make mistakes...So it sounds like everyone is opting out of playing Terran because its easier to win w/ Zerg and Protoss. After 15 minutes its an uphill battle for Terran...Why would people play a race that takes both micro/macro skills when they can just play P or Z and just needs to macro.
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Just talking about personal experience.
Alot of my friends that played T since the Beta stopped their left sc2 when their cheese, 1-2 base timings got figured out. They where never good at macroing or in late game in general so when their "abusive play" got nerfed/figured out they left the game. Probably alot of other T player did the same.
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Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 02:28 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:07 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2012 01:58 Baum wrote:On March 12 2012 01:30 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I said that Terran was easier to play in the past thus Protoss and Zerg had to step up their skill to compete. Good example is the Ghost. The way it was before: units were clumped up --> one EMP and Terran roflstomped a protoss army.
As it is now, protoss spread their units, move forward with a few HT to feedback ghosts and so on. I'm not saying that requires a huge amount of skill, I'm merely saying that it requires a ton more skill than before while terran basically still does the same thing (ghosts -> EMP -> try to roflstomp)
And one more popular example: the 1/1/1. How much skill does it take to hold it in comparison to executing it? That's exactly what I mean.
People like you make these threads so much worse. Posting a rhetoric question doesn't make up for the lack of truth to your statement. Sure a 111 does take a specific response but is it a difficult to execute response? Maybe at wood levels where people are sitting in their base for the first 10 minutes and then a wild 1/1/1 appears in front of their base it's easier to execute than defend it but diamond and above a 1/1/1 army is as fragile as any other terran army and a-moving it across the map will cost you the game against any smart player. You have to focus with your tanks, focus and kite with marines and do damage with your harass before the push for it to have a chance of working. I am not saying it's incredibly hard to do that but defending it isn't more difficult either. Soooo you just said "diamond and above". Well yeah. That's the level it takes to hold a 1/1/1 which is why it's easier to execute than it is to hold. Thank you for clearing that up, it's exactly what I said in my post above. You have to keep in mind that all races should be equally strong on every level. And I met my first 1/1/1s in bronze / silver soooooo yeah. Don't take my point and make it what you want it to be. Clearly you have no facts to prove your statement but try to cover that up rhetorically. What I said was that it's easier to execute against someone who just sits in their base waiting for it to come which is a typical mistake at lower levels. Following your logic how can you possibly make the argument you made above? Have you actually experienced how hard it is to control a terran army against Protoss? Sorry to say but your post sounds incredibly ignorant.
So once again, if you make the mistake of not intercepting the army and delaying as much as possible, you lose the game. If you lose the force you intercept with, you lose the game. If you don't macro well enough to get enough of the correct units + the correct upgrades, you lose the game.
People with much higher understanding of the game than you or me have stated that the 1/1/1 is overpowered for being easier to execute than to hold (Day9 said it in one of his dailies for example). Not to mention... blizzard.
Sure it's not easy to micro as the 1/1/1 player but the same goes for the defending protoss + he also has to delay + macro + scout for the exact composition that's headed your way while taking minimum losses. If you screw up one of these, you will lose the game assuming that your opponent is on your skill level.
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On March 12 2012 02:36 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:00 dde wrote:
I talked to korean pros at MLG winter areana about the current balance. Zergs believe that Protoss is too strong while terrans believe that theres no hope vs zerg in the late game due to ghost nerfs and they just find vs protoss just insaely hard for some reason (not sure why because I like to play vs protoss). Protoss players said that zerg is the op race. That would confirm my opinion on Zerg. It's the strongest race simply because it has been balanced by Blizzard around the fact that you don't need to micro your shit and a glorious A-move is enough in most cases. The whole zerglings + double melee upgrades in ZvT is based around this. Much easier than to micro mutalisks, you surround (move command then an A-move, basically) a Terran army and it's gg. Once you get a good game sense going, to deflect pressure moves and various all ins without sacrificing much economy, you're instantly a good player with Zerg, you make the right units at the right time, and annihilate your opponents army while re-macroing and eating French fries. It's not easy to get to this point, but it's very easy to win once you know the game a bit. And once you realize that you actually CAN micro your units as Zerg, like Stephano and DRG do, and that it makes you rape your opponent even harder, well, you get the strongest race in the game. Mark my words and wait for HOTS, they will be all the more true. Edit: replaced "reproducing" with "re-macroing" ;D
yeah and if Terran opens mech or banshees it's a BO loss. and if Terran just macros up, no upgrade advantage in the world will make it so that your lings don't melt superfast in the upcoming 3-4base battle.
that style is popular on high level, because mutamaps are being taken out + you can allin easier of it, which is damn necessary to keep good Terrans honest and prevents them outexpanding zergs like top Koreans do.
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On March 12 2012 02:10 Psychobabas wrote:
Why is it that mostly Protoss players appear in this thread saying that TvP is fine, when the OP just mentions some simple statistics?
I wonder why...
because thats what every race does in every thread about balance?
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On March 12 2012 01:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote:
terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races.
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard,
but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is.
with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights.
good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking.
also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing.
if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated
vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you.
- no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds.
so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before.
it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots)
granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time.
in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger.
another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines).
anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool
basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential.
and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know.
I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games.
in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago.
at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often.
players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time.
go figure!
if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly.
Really? Terran has their tier 3 units, and they're actually pretty good if used correctley? -- says the bronze league nub to all the pro Korean terrans who play the game 12h/day, everyday, and never use any terran tier 3.
But I guess it's possible EVERY PRO Terran on the planet could be wrong, and you could be right.
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tvt is imba. nerf mraines pls! thx
User was warned for this post
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Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 03:04 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 01:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote:
terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races.
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard,
but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is.
with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights.
good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking.
also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing.
if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated
vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you.
- no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds.
so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before.
it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots)
granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time.
in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger.
another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines).
anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool
basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential.
and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know.
I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games.
in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago.
at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often.
players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time.
go figure!
if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly. Really? Terran has their tier 3 units, and they're actually pretty good if used correctley? -- says the bronze league nub to all the pro Korean terrans who play the game 12h/day, everyday, and never use any terran tier 3. But I guess it's possible EVERY PRO Terran on the planet could be wrong, and you could be right.
Bronze league, of course lol.
I'm saying that ravens are good. Battlecruisers are good. What if you get a few ravens against a brood lord / infestor army? Or battlecruisers against protoss lategame? Some people actually do it, I've seen replays of high masters TvZ and TvP where the terrans won using those units. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible and those units are good.
Just like carriers are actually kinda good and protoss players are starting to use them lategame. But well, that's another topic and shouldn't be discussed here.
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this thread is looking more and more like a b.net balance thread for every added page.
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On March 12 2012 02:28 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play. zzz... read the thread, nobody denies that terran is a good race on pro-level. Terran is just so much harder to play at low levels that people give up and change to P/Z.
At low level, terran is by far the easiest race.
It's just way easier to copy a build order, make the same timing push every game while improving the execution.
Terran have so many abusive plays, and on the ladder it's almost all you can see from terran players.
Of course, if you want to go beyond that, terran is extremely diffficult, especially if you used to relied on timings pushs, because you are now facing players who are ways more skilled than you. But that's not low levels, it's at least master level.
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On March 12 2012 03:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 03:04 mlspmatt wrote:On March 12 2012 01:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote:
terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races.
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard,
but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is.
with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights.
good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking.
also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing.
if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated
vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you.
- no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds.
so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before.
it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots)
granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time.
in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger.
another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines).
anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool
basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential.
and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know.
I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games.
in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago.
at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often.
players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time.
go figure!
if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly. Really? Terran has their tier 3 units, and they're actually pretty good if used correctley? -- says the bronze league nub to all the pro Korean terrans who play the game 12h/day, everyday, and never use any terran tier 3. But I guess it's possible EVERY PRO Terran on the planet could be wrong, and you could be right. Bronze league, of course lol. I'm saying that ravens are good. Battlecruisers are good. What if you get a few ravens against a brood lord / infestor army? Or battlecruisers against protoss lategame? Some people actually do it, I've seen replays of high masters TvZ and TvP where the terrans won using those units. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible and those units are good. Just like carriers are actually kinda good and protoss players are starting to use them lategame. But well, that's another topic and shouldn't be discussed here.
I have never seen a pro player use raven or bcs outside of tvt late game or early game. If they were ANY good pros would use them. High masters are not the ones to judge but rather pro players. Also, carriers aren't good at all. In all the games where carriers were used lately the zerg just massed corruptors and rolled the protoss.
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On March 12 2012 03:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 03:04 mlspmatt wrote:On March 12 2012 01:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote:
terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races.
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard,
but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is.
with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights.
good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking.
also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing.
if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated
vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you.
- no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds.
so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before.
it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots)
granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time.
in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger.
another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines).
anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool
basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential.
and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know.
I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games.
in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago.
at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often.
players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time.
go figure!
if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly. Really? Terran has their tier 3 units, and they're actually pretty good if used correctley? -- says the bronze league nub to all the pro Korean terrans who play the game 12h/day, everyday, and never use any terran tier 3. But I guess it's possible EVERY PRO Terran on the planet could be wrong, and you could be right. Bronze league, of course lol. I'm saying that ravens are good. Battlecruisers are good. What if you get a few ravens against a brood lord / infestor army? Or battlecruisers against protoss lategame? Some people actually do it, I've seen replays of high masters TvZ and TvP where the terrans won using those units. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible and those units are good. Just like carriers are actually kinda good and protoss players are starting to use them lategame. But well, that's another topic and shouldn't be discussed here.
Gold then? Yeah.. lets invest in a expensive unit which is easily countered by feedback/stalkers in terms of Battlecrusier TvP, or Infestor/corrupter in terms of Raven TvZ. In both cases, in late game, the opposing races will have a plethora of the units needed to counter.
One of the answers, probably, is to get an advantage mid game with brilliant multi tasking sort of play, the sort of play a mid masters terran like myself is not greatly capable without playing all the time.
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On March 12 2012 03:13 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:28 zezamer wrote:On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play. zzz... read the thread, nobody denies that terran is a good race on pro-level. Terran is just so much harder to play at low levels that people give up and change to P/Z. At low level, terran is by far the easiest race. It's just way easier to copy a build order, make the same timing push every game while improving the execution. Terran have so many abusive plays, and on the ladder it's almost all you can see from terran players. Of course, if you want to go beyond that, terran is extremely diffficult, especially if you used to relied on timings pushs, because you are now facing players who are ways more skilled than you. But that's not low levels, it's at least master level.
Yes, because protoss timing pushes are sooooooooo baddddddd right............. And zerg timing pushes are soooooo awfulllll.
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On March 12 2012 03:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 03:04 mlspmatt wrote:On March 12 2012 01:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote:
terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races.
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard,
but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is.
with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights.
good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking.
also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing.
if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated
vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you.
- no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds.
so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before.
it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots)
granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time.
in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger.
another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines).
anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool
basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential.
and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know.
I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games.
in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago.
at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often.
players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time.
go figure!
if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly. Really? Terran has their tier 3 units, and they're actually pretty good if used correctley? -- says the bronze league nub to all the pro Korean terrans who play the game 12h/day, everyday, and never use any terran tier 3. But I guess it's possible EVERY PRO Terran on the planet could be wrong, and you could be right. Bronze league, of course lol. I'm saying that ravens are good. Battlecruisers are good. What if you get a few ravens against a brood lord / infestor army? Or battlecruisers against protoss lategame? Some people actually do it, I've seen replays of high masters TvZ and TvP where the terrans won using those units. I'm not saying it's easy but it's possible and those units are good. Just like carriers are actually kinda good and protoss players are starting to use them lategame. But well, that's another topic and shouldn't be discussed here.
I've heard this argument many times: terran really does have good tier 3 units, they just don't use them.
The problem is there's zero evidence for this. It's possible there's a Tier 3 unit composition that may work, someday. But until it's proven to work in pro play it's all conjecture. Again, there is no evidence to make the statement you made. Maybe someday Hydras really will be the key for Zerg to beat Terran, but as of now, there's no evidence to support this.
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Terran is definitely harder and more demanding to play at every level. At the level korean progamers are now the game is quite balanced, and I wouldn't recommend anyone to play terran unless what they are looking for is a lot of challenge and patience. If mech was viable against protoss I think players not as good as korean progamers would have a good chance of not struggling so much as they are now. Perhaps things will change radically in this matter when HotS comes out.
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EPT
