EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 20
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m1rk3
Canada412 Posts
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Poopi
France12903 Posts
On March 12 2012 00:32 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think it was because (roughly, lol) 99% of code S were terrans, 80% of which were and are less skilled than the upcoming code A players at that time like DRG, HerO, etc. Basically the "fodder" in code s were all terrans and they were still doing better than the best protoss and zerg players in the world. Except for Nestea maybe. Lol DRG never went through code A. He got a code S spot at MLG. And HerO is nothing special amongst koreans lol there are quite a lot of better players than him | ||
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Sianos
580 Posts
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nqqvt3
Canada55 Posts
But seroiously I found Terran to be boring and is much easier but as I porgressed in skills I found zerg to be a much more enjoyable race than Terran so I switched. The case has been the same for my friends, we started as Terran than most of us switched into the other races. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
On March 12 2012 00:40 NoctemSC wrote: Actually you're wrong, no where in the OP did I state I wanted easy wins, I asked a simple question, why are there less terrans. Don't presume that you know why each and every Terran player is losing. Your generalizations are crap, just as all generalizations are. You act like Terran are the only race that has cheese tactics, you'd be wrong on that front too. I'm a heavy macro player player with aggressive openings into expands. If the consensus is that Terran late game is crap, it would make sense that Terrans would be forced into using extremely early pressure no? I can break it down for you why Terran late game is the worst of the three if you'd like but it wouldn't be relevant to my original question, just as your lousy presumptions are not. No where in my post did i state that you wanted "easy wins" i was not getting at you. You asked where the Terran's have gone and that's my 2 cents. You might want to play the" right way" with Macro games but clearly a lot of players do not. There were Terran's in Masters league based solely on 1 base play with a quick kill under 10 minutes As i stated before its no coincident that as the maps get bigger that the strength of Protoss and Zerg increases with less chance of dying in the first 10 mins, so perhaps those players have grown frustrated and quit or switched to Zerg or Protoss. This is a garbage thread with balance whines hidden inside it. Statements like" I want my SVC's to auto mine after i build a building because I forgot to shift click" in one of the posts is just plain silly | ||
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
TvP. Also, Terran isn't really 'OP' imo..... I mean, I've seen people say that being able to drop is really good. But seriously? Zerg can drop with their overlords and Protoss can use warp-prism which can even add in additional units. | ||
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ZerO_0
United States137 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:15 ZerO_0 wrote: I think its because its just harder to play terran at a lower level since they are more micro intensive. They get out a lot more out of there units if microed right. This statement is true if you consider everything outside of Korea "lower level". Guys look at today's GO4SC2 bracket a nice Terran line up started in round 1 with a lot of known EU terran players and still it wasnt enough to get even A SINGLE TERRAN into the quaterfinals (besides Polt ofc). | ||
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 00:59 Poopi wrote: Lol DRG never went through code A. He got a code S spot at MLG. And HerO is nothing special amongst koreans lol there are quite a lot of better players than him Oh yeah, DRG never even made it to Code A before getting his spot. Still, you're not addressing the point. Around the time when HerO won Dreamhack he was one of the best protoss players in the world. He's a lot more skilled than most of the korean terrans in code s at that time and even now he's one of the most skilled players in Code S. But this is not about him. Btw: There were 19 Terrans in Code S November. Nineteen. There were 15 in Season 1 of 2012. Still the most out of any race. | ||
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iAmiAnC
United Kingdom317 Posts
On March 12 2012 00:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: Maybe it's because terrans don't get their free wins through an overpowered early / mid game timing anymore since people got used to it and suddenly they have to play the "lategame" as they call it. I remember when brood / infestor got popular 80% of the terrans tried to fight it with marine tank lol. People figure out things that work given the current metagame and well, terran has had their easy wins for quite a few seasons now. Now that that's gone, a lot of them actually have to increase their overall skill (something toss and zerg already had to do long before). I guess that's just too much to handle for a lot of people. I know a guy who bunker rushed his way into diamond and suddenly it doesn't work anymore. Guess what he does? He cries about balance and rage quits terran. He's zerg now because "their macro is so ridiculously easy". What I'm trying to say is terran is getting more difficult to play because the metagame has changed and people learned how to deal with early /midgame terran timings, 80% of which used to win terrans the game. I know a guy who 6 pooled his way into a GM then wrote a verbose guide about it, covering weighty issues such as whether to pull drones or not to pull drones, anecdotal evidence is fun! In a couple of lines you also managed to call Terran overpowered and claim Zerg n' Protoss players have a higher overall skill level than Terran players, impressive! My 2 cents (long response) + Show Spoiler + I'm sure lots of Terran players would love to play long, drawn-out matches against Protoss but the fact remains that unless you get miles ahead with a multi-pronged Stim + Medivac harass in the midgame (i.e. winning via better mechanics, multitasking - see every game a Korean Terran wins vs a Protoss in 2012) then you don't have a viable lategame composition. The only times you see Terrans winning with MMMVG vs Protoss in the late game is when they get in a situation where the Protoss player has no observers and they are able to use mass cloaked Ghost (i.e. the Protoss player did something badly wrong in most cases), or they have a huge economic/upgrade lead and can throw units at the Protoss. See the much complained-about PuMa vs MC IEM6 finals for examples, I think every game PuMa won involved a drop in MC's main whilst microing on 2 fronts to defend MC's attack at his natural? Every loss involved the game going past 20mins with neither player having an advantage entering the "lategame", followed by PuMa getting rolled over in 1 battle and the game being over. Mech has been explored to death too and the upshot is basically that Immortals are pretty good units. Blink Stalker mobility is also a problem for mech. See GoOdy's 1hour loss vs MaNa (I think?) on Shakuras from a while back. As far as late game TvZ and TvP goes I find that Terran production gets abused heavily in the later stages of the game. Obviously Zerg is the king of tech switches, veering from throwing out 10 Ultralisks to remaxing on Brood Lords shortly after the battle, but even Protoss is able to punish Terran production in the late game. With the help of Chrono Boost a small hole in a Terran's composition can be ripped wide open very easily. Too many Marauders? warp in 25 Zealots. Too many Vikings? sudden HT/Archon switch. Lots of Ghost + Marine to deal with Chargelot Archon? Chrono out Collosus. The warp in mechanic also sucks any "epicness" out of the TvP matchup. There is simply no such thing as distance or a defenders advantage, you are always ONE lost battle (even maringally lost) away from a lost game in TvP. Thanks to the magic of a forward Pylon a concentrated force of 25 Zealots will arrive outside your front door together and the only resistance they will face is some bio plopping out of Barracks (which may be spread out too) 1 at a time... "Early/midgame terran timings" are literally the only thing Terran players have in their arsenal vs Protoss at the moment, and thats not through lack of innovation, its through the lack of anything decent (except perhaps 150 supply of 3/3 Battlecruisers, gl with that transition). There is also nothing "free win" about picking a Protoss player appart with multi pronged aggression using the first 2-4 Medivacs of the game. That isn't something the average Joe Platinum League is going to be able to execute. Its completely unfair to be describing micro and multitasking intensive strategies as a free win for Terran... Personally I gravitate towards early timings and even all-ins against Protoss out of pure frustration. There is only so many times you can lose a 30min TvP based on 1 huge engagement before you run out of patience. Thats only compounded by going back and watching your replays to try and analyze what went wrong. In several cases I have found that my Protoss opponent will have 60 apm (to my 120-150) and during the "epic" game winning battle he'll spend much of it staring at an arbitrary part of his base or just gawping at the battle unfolding whilst having 0 apm (mid-high Master league EU). I find that infuriating. Now thats all very well and its just my opinion, but the real kicker is that even in the face of all the recent evidence (TLPD February win rates for example) I still feel Terrans are treated like pariahs, STILL considered "overpowered" by the masses... Who wants to play the (arguably) most difficult and micro intensive race (try a-moving into Infestor + Baneling or a Protoss deathball, I dare you) when your successes are chalked up to Terran being overpowered anyway. Just won a lategame TvZ engagement with amazing Marine splitting whilst splatting all the Banelings with your Siege Tanks at the same time? Don't expect "gg", expect "Lol marines are a fucking joke" followed by *GuyWhoOverDroned has left the game!* | ||
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Pesto
United States121 Posts
This isn't necessarily a balance issue, just an apm hurdle that terrans have to overcome. Add that to the fact that a protoss army functions best in one group, while terrans need not only to spread efficiently in the main army but also have the role of agressor in the current metagame, which is more action intensive. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:10 Topdoller wrote: No where in my post did i state that you wanted "easy wins" i was not getting at you. You asked where the Terran's have gone and that's my 2 cents. You might want to play the" right way" with Macro games but clearly a lot of players do not. There were Terran's in Masters league based solely on 1 base play with a quick kill under 10 minutes As i stated before its no coincident that as the maps get bigger that the strength of Protoss and Zerg increases with less chance of dying in the first 10 mins, so perhaps those players have grown frustrated and quit or switched to Zerg or Protoss. This is a garbage thread with balance whines hidden inside it. Statements like" I want my SVC's to auto mine after i build a building because I forgot to shift click" in one of the posts is just plain silly So you are of the opinion that a significantly lower number of terran players in all but bronze league has no meaning and nothing has to be done? | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
As it is now, protoss spread their units, move forward with a few HT to feedback ghosts and so on. I'm not saying that requires a huge amount of skill, I'm merely saying that it requires a ton more skill than before while terran basically still does the same thing (ghosts -> EMP -> try to roflstomp) And one more popular example: the 1/1/1. How much skill does it take to hold it in comparison to executing it? That's exactly what I mean. | ||
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TotalBronzenoob
9 Posts
I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard, but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is. with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights. good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking. also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing. if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you. - no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds. so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before. it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots) granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time. in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger. another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines). anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential. and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know. I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games. in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago. And for the last 12 months, anytime no korean went to a big offline event with the best foreigners, a protoss or zerg won it. at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often. players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practice with the best players in the world all the time. go figure! if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
HOTS is the zerg game, with hots coming out zerg will stay the "strongest" race. LOTV is toss game and i think when that expansion comes out toss will be the "strongest" race Am actually suprised that there are less terrans now,somehow expected them to remain the most played race as it does seem the easiest race to start with if you completely new to th game (you at least learn a bit during the campaign) Maybe because terran is not considerd "cool" (due to excessive wining about terran from a certain usa zerg player), This contrary to zerg or toss (every new european player wants to be stephano, so goes zerg and special tactics as toss also have their apeal) terran players are often looked down upon wich is not realy an invitation to go play the race i dont see it improve in the future with hots and lotv coming out dark times are ahead for terrans  | ||
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Xiron
Germany1233 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote: + Show Spoiler + terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races. I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard, but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is. with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights. good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking. + Show Spoiler + also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing. if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you. - no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds. so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before. it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots) granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time. in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger. another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines). anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential. and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know. I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games. in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago. at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often. players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time. go figure! if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. [image blocked] Your theory is fully disproven. Sorry. All you need to be a successfull (Grandmaster) Terran is: gamesense, ok macro, ok micro, good decision making. | ||
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Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:33 TotalBronzenoob wrote: terran is just way too hard to play in comparison to the other races. I don't wanna say that P and Z doesn't need skill, or isn't hard, but the skill they need mostly depends on how good the terran's mechanics and multitasking is. with this, the terrans have to overextend and harass their opponents, so much, that they can't macro perfectly anymore, in other words, terran has to force mistakes. in addition to this terran has to micro perfectly in fights. good macro, strategies or gameplan isn't enough without great mechanics and great multitasking. also terran is very prone to lose their entire army for absolutely nothing. if you run into a zerg army unsieged, or unspread you'll be completely obliterated vs protoss, storms, forcefields and colossi will eat you. - no matter how well the game went for you until then, you'll just have lost the game in 3 seconds. so oftentimes T will lose because of this, even if they played a perfect macrogame before. it's just extremely hard to take big fights while having to do other things at the same time, on another screen (e.g. defend mutas/warp prism drop, dt's, switch addons, build depots) granted, P and Z also have to multitask, but they won't lose their entire army to absolutely nothing if they don't pay attention to their fight for a brief time. in other words: if 2 players just a-move their armies (and cast their AOE spells if available), the terran will always lose, even if their army is slightly bigger. another thing why people stopped playing terran, are obviously the patches and the anti-terran maps (long rush distance, easy and safe 3rd, 4th, chokepoints favoring forcefields,storms,fungal, banelings, baneling landmines). anytime a terran player improves, they will get set back by the next incoming patch or mappool basically, the main problem with terran is, only korean progamers are capable of playing terran at it's full potential. and to do so, they play up to 16 hours a day 7 days a week, in professional training houses, as we all know. I also think that korean's are by natural, kind of gifted at playing rts games. in fact, the last time a foreign terran won a big offline tournament that was seeded by the best players in the world,was more than a year ago. at the same time, while you see foreign terrans completely falling apart in big tournaments, you see foreign protoss and zerg players beat the best korean terran players in the world more often. players who go to school. study or work and can't take too much time in gaming, beat people who play 24/7 as a full-time job in a professional environment who practices with the best players in the world all the time. go figure! if you are gosu, terran is just damn powerful. if not, you're much better of with playing z or p. See this is what's wrong with this thread. You've probably never experienced a stimmed bio ball crashing into your units while you're not paying attention. If you A-move in without micro except your AoE spells, Terran wins because EMP removes all protoss spells + does damage to all the units. Maps with longer rush distance are there so you can't win with your first marine in a bunker. The day will come when Terrans realize that they have tier 3 units and that those units are actually good if used correctly. | ||
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iAmiAnC
United Kingdom317 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: I said that Terran was easier to play in the past thus Protoss and Zerg had to step up their skill to compete. Good example is the Ghost. The way it was before: units were clumped up --> one EMP and Terran roflstomped a protoss army. As it is now, protoss spread their units, move forward with a few HT to feedback ghosts and so on. I'm not saying that requires a huge amount of skill, I'm merely saying that it requires a ton more skill than before while terran basically still does the same thing (ghosts -> EMP -> try to roflstomp) And one more popular example: the 1/1/1. How much skill does it take to hold it in comparison to executing it? That's exactly what I mean. You'd be surprised by the micro that takes place during a 1-1-1.
That covers when you're sieged up at the Protoss base, lets not forget the ordeal which is actually crossing the map with your 1-1-1 to reach that stage. As far as Protoss is concerned if they manage to micro their Immortals such that a couple of shots land on Siege Tanks theyre doing well. If they use a Prism to drop Immortals or set up a flank they're probably GM. If they did their own 1 base or built some Phoenixes then the whole thing is academic because they've already won. 1-1-1 is laughably weak now and I think in hindsight we can see it was never even that great in the first place. Its strength was down to Protoss players just expanding and making Gateway units then wondering why they weren't rolling the Terran army. If you want an example of a unit/build that requires no micro/APM and forces massive amounts of micro and APM to deal with it then I present you the Chargelot. Once fired this APM missile locks onto a Terran unit and forces 300 APM of stutter stepping across several screens to be dealt with, or at the very least a less cost efficient reshuffling of the Terran army to create a concave for dealing with the Chargelots. Meanwhile the Protoss player who fired the APM missle can go back to staring at the pretty Forges in their base whirring round with Chrono Boost on them. | ||
Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:39 Xiron wrote: [image blocked] Your theory is fully disproven. Sorry. Goody stopped meching in TvP a few months ago, said even with all the time he's put into TvP mech bio is still better. Coincidentally, I haven't heard anything about him either way since the battle of berlin. how strange. | ||
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