EPTLosing your first tank in Brood War in TvP was pretty much game over in certain cases or not having turrets/scan up when DTs arrive. Or not holding SCVs on your ramp when your opponent 6 pools and etc.
Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 21
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Silentness
United States2821 Posts
Losing your first tank in Brood War in TvP was pretty much game over in certain cases or not having turrets/scan up when DTs arrive. Or not holding SCVs on your ramp when your opponent 6 pools and etc. | ||
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:41 iAmiAnC wrote: You'd be surprised by the micro that takes place during a 1-1-1.
That covers when you're sieged up at the Protoss base, lets not forget the ordeal which is actually crossing the map with your 1-1-1 to reach that stage. As far as Protoss is concerned if they manage to micro their Immortals such that a couple of shots land on Siege Tanks theyre doing well. If they use a Prism to drop Immortals or set up a flank they're probably GM. If they did their own 1 base or built some Phoenixes then the whole thing is academic because they've already won. 1-1-1 is laughably weak now and I think in hindsight we can see it was never even that great in the first place. Its strength was down to Protoss players just expanding and making Gateway units then wondering why they weren't rolling the Terran army. You'd be surprised how easily none of that matters. Just getting enough units out to even have a chance of holding is hard enough. Delaying the push without losing your units is like playing with your life. Zealots need to be somewhat in the front so they take tank hits. Marines take out damaged zealots no problem. If immortals are in the front they die to marines SO fast. If you're lucky and you managed to have one out, you get to micro a colossus out of tank range. Holding a 1/1/1 is about macroing, delaying, microing and everything has to be done perfectly. The smallest mistake might kill you, which makes it the perfect example. people had to play perfectly to survive pushes like that and maybe diamond upwards could hold it, but bronze players can execute it (even if they don't do it well, it's still harder to stop as an equally skilled player). | ||
|
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:42 Silentness wrote: It was the same concept in Starcraft: Brood War... Terran was a lot harder for learning curve compared to Protoss. Losing your first tank in Brood War in TvP was pretty much game over in certain cases or not having turrets/scan up when DTs arrive. Or not holding SCVs on your ramp when your opponent 6 pools and etc. Yeah thats true. TvP in BW was very unforgiving early game. You could basically die to 3 dragons or zealots if you didn't have your opening timed down perfectly. Or DT's if you had bad timing on your ebay or comsat. xD Protoss was popular by foreigners in BW too because it was "the easiest" race. Only thing is that BW was a hard game by itself so the mechanical part of Protoss in BW didn't make the race laughable easy to play mechanicly like in sc2. | ||
|
Korste
United States64 Posts
| ||
|
Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:30 DarkLordOlli wrote: I said that Terran was easier to play in the past thus Protoss and Zerg had to step up their skill to compete. Good example is the Ghost. The way it was before: units were clumped up --> one EMP and Terran roflstomped a protoss army. As it is now, protoss spread their units, move forward with a few HT to feedback ghosts and so on. I'm not saying that requires a huge amount of skill, I'm merely saying that it requires a ton more skill than before while terran basically still does the same thing (ghosts -> EMP -> try to roflstomp) And one more popular example: the 1/1/1. How much skill does it take to hold it in comparison to executing it? That's exactly what I mean. People like you make these threads so much worse. Posting a rhetoric question doesn't make up for the lack of truth to your statement. Sure a 111 does take a specific response but is it a difficult to execute response? Maybe at wood levels where people are sitting in their base for the first 10 minutes and then a wild 1/1/1 appears in front of their base it's easier to execute than defend it but diamond and above a 1/1/1 army is as fragile as any other terran army and a-moving it across the map will cost you the game against any smart player. You have to focus with your tanks, focus and kite with marines and do damage with your harass before the push for it to have a chance of working. I am not saying it's incredibly hard to do that but defending it isn't more difficult either. | ||
|
JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
| ||
|
Sianos
580 Posts
Everyone says ,, Just Macro like a boss and win" and "Focus on your Macro first". Even if you have a 2 Base lead, you cannot queue up units in your production buildings when you are maxed. If you just focus on rebuilding your units, your main army get´s completly crushed without any metionable losses for the other race. So even if you focus hard on your Macro with a 2 Base lead and build units instantly when your supply get´s free, you will have like 30-40 Units waiting for the 120 Army Deathball from your opponent and you will die even if you had perfect Macro. In the other case, if you focused heavily on the fight and came out slightly ahead, you get overrun by 20 Chargelots or 60 Speedlings and say ,, Omg if i had Macroed better i could have won". So in the moment i would say to every Terran who is new to the game ,, Focus on constant pressure/attacking and trading in order to have a chance to win." The thing why Terran is very strong in the midgame is because of the fact, that they can use an advantage once they get them. But when it get´s into the lategame. Every advantage is negated. The simple change of letting your units getting queued up when you are maxed would help every Terran, because they could then focus more on fights and would be able to trade more cost effectivly. | ||
|
dde
Canada796 Posts
| ||
|
TotalBronzenoob
9 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:39 Xiron wrote: [image blocked] Your theory is fully disproven. Sorry. All you need to be a successfull (Grandmaster) Terran is: gamesense, ok macro, ok micro, good decision making. well it's true, my theory doesn't explain the goody phenomenon. I don't consider goody terran, he kinda is his own race. however, he never won a big tournament, whether online or offline, and somehow goody seems to be the only person who's that successful in playing like that style. sure his micro and macro is full of flaws, but if it was that easy to copy, the majority would play goody's style and the ladder wouldn't be so terran-vacant as it is currently.there must be something special, why goody is quite successful, and the average mech player is not, it's weird, no one really understands why goody wins. it's a miracle  | ||
|
iAmiAnC
United Kingdom317 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You'd be surprised how easily none of that matters. Just getting enough units out to even have a chance of holding is hard It matters once you get into a league where people actually know what a 1-1-1 is... The majority of Bronze or w/e players aren't just randomly knowing and executing a 1-1-1 lol. There isn't some level where Terrans secretly know what 1-1-1 is but the Protoss players don't and have no idea what to do about it. As for GoOdy he's low-mid GM and laddering as Protoss an awful lot lately. | ||
|
Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On March 12 2012 02:00 TotalBronzenoob wrote: well it's true, my theory doesn't explain the goody phenomenon. I don't consider goody terran, he kinda is his own race. however, he never won a big tournament, whether online or offline, and somehow goody seems to be the only person who's that successful in playing like that style. sure his micro and macro is full of flaws, but if it was that easy to copy, the majority would play goody's style and the ladder wouldn't be so terran-vacant as it is currently.there must be something special, why goody is quite successful, and the average mech player is not, it's weird, no one really understands why goody wins. it's a miracle One of Goody's "secrets" is that his micro is actually good. It only slips sometimes when multitasking/macro gets in his way. Which leads people to claim that his micro is bad. | ||
|
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:58 Baum wrote: People like you make these threads so much worse. Posting a rhetoric question doesn't make up for the lack of truth to your statement. Sure a 111 does take a specific response but is it a difficult to execute response? Maybe at wood levels where people are sitting in their base for the first 10 minutes and then a wild 1/1/1 appears in front of their base it's easier to execute than defend it but diamond and above a 1/1/1 army is as fragile as any other terran army and a-moving it across the map will cost you the game against any smart player. You have to focus with your tanks, focus and kite with marines and do damage with your harass before the push for it to have a chance of working. I am not saying it's incredibly hard to do that but defending it isn't more difficult either. Soooo you just said "diamond and above". Well yeah. That's the level it takes to hold a 1/1/1 which is why it's easier to execute than it is to hold. Thank you for clearing that up, it's exactly what I said in my post above. You have to keep in mind that all races should be equally strong on every level. And I met my first 1/1/1s in bronze / silver soooooo yeah. | ||
|
MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
| ||
|
Luepert
United States1933 Posts
| ||
|
anApple
Singapore275 Posts
On March 12 2012 01:52 DarkLordOlli wrote: You'd be surprised how easily none of that matters. Just getting enough units out to even have a chance of holding is hard enough. Delaying the push without losing your units is like playing with your life. Zealots need to be somewhat in the front so they take tank hits. Marines take out damaged zealots no problem. If immortals are in the front they die to marines SO fast. If you're lucky and you managed to have one out, you get to micro a colossus out of tank range. Holding a 1/1/1 is about macroing, delaying, microing and everything has to be done perfectly. The smallest mistake might kill you, which makes it the perfect example. people had to play perfectly to survive pushes like that and maybe diamond upwards could hold it, but bronze players can execute it (even if they don't do it well, it's still harder to stop as an equally skilled player). Rofl. No. Especially the part about bronze players. Also, please stop making multiple posts QQing about Terran, you've made like 10 so far which all make pretty biased and invalid points. | ||
|
Psychobabas
2531 Posts
I wonder why... | ||
|
TotalBronzenoob
9 Posts
On March 12 2012 02:08 MasterKang wrote: hahhah I love how toss thinks vZ is their worst matchup and zerg thinks vP is their worst matchup. hahahaha me too :D | ||
|
NeMeSiS3
Canada2972 Posts
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT... Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak". Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM. /endrant Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
|
Olli
Austria24420 Posts
On March 12 2012 02:09 CeroFail wrote: Rofl. No. Especially the part about bronze players. Also, please stop making multiple posts QQing about Terran, you've made like 10 so far which all make pretty biased and invalid points. I'm not saying Terran is overpowered or anything, I'm just saying that terran has had an easier time in the past which is just a fact regarding the statistics and people have adapted to it. That's why terran winrates are not as high as they used to be and that's why a bunch of people are switching races. Terran timing attacks are the best example for that. The 1/1/1 discussion is off topic and kinda stupid, I admit that. It just annoys me how 80% of all terrans are now whining about how Terran is the weakest / hardest race to play while all that's changed are things that were overpowered such as EMP getting nerfed and people getting used to terran timings. Of course that makes the overall game harder which is why terran currently seems to have less people playing it. | ||
|
karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 12 2012 02:10 Psychobabas wrote: Why is it that mostly Protoss players appear in this thread saying that TvP is fine, when the OP just mentions some simple statistics? I wonder why... Maybe the reason is that many more terran players come here to whine about protoss being super easy and terran being so very hard to play. It'll start a shit discussion like this one, both parties are to be blamed equally. | ||
| ||
