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Funny how people talk about the top Terran users for their arguments but I don't think anyone is arguing that Terran can't hang at the top level. They point to Korea and I agree that at the top level Terran is probably a little stronger balance wise. Strelok made a thread a while ago talking about the lack of Terrans in Europe and now this thread as well. I think it takes more work for a Terran to get to the same level as a Zerg or Protoss unless you're putting in progamer hours.
Another issue is the play style. Under "normal" circumstances Zerg is passive and wants to do SimCity/Farmville in both matches and just sit back and expand. Protoss does the same thing vs Terran but would probably be considered the aggressor in PvZ. Terran in both matches has to be the aggressor. I don't think it's a balance issue, just the way the game plays. Terran can't remax like Zerg and are a bit slower than Protoss as well. Terran are given the tool for harassment for this reason it seems.
Some last remarks, I think it's funny how Blizzard didn't want the game to be balanced by maps like in BW but maps still plays an important role. Also, Blizzard didn't want long games, I think it's funny how standard play is building another base as one of your first buildings. That's just dumb to me. Your first building is another base or spawning pool. Nexus, forge, or 1 gate sentry nexus. 1 rax cc.
If you go one base you're an all-in/cheeser and I wish that mentality change. Instead you should build another base as your first thing and you should let the passive race build harvesters so the announcers can say WOW LOOK AT ALL THOSE WORKERS. HE'S A MONSTER NO ONE CAN KEEP UP WITH HIS MACRO.
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Oh look, another balance qq thread that "isn't a balance qq thread."
Terran was overpowered since release. Look at a combination of tournament wins + patch notes for the first year of the game if you need proof. The community as a whole told terran players their race was overpowered and should expect harder wins in the future. When it finally came, people bitched, switched races, or just quit rather than get better. Not much else to say IMO.
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Sorry for the off topic but... terran in black looks AMAZING
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On March 12 2012 05:51 HardlyNever wrote:
Oh look, another balance qq thread that "isn't a balance qq thread."
Terran was overpowered since release. Look at a combination of tournament wins + patch notes for the first year of the game if you need proof. The community as a whole told terran players their race was overpowered and should expect harder wins in the future. When it finally came, people bitched, switched races, or just quit rather than get better. Not much else to say IMO.
Oh, you're qqin right now.
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On March 12 2012 05:51 HardlyNever wrote:
Oh look, another balance qq thread that "isn't a balance qq thread."
Terran was overpowered since release. Look at a combination of tournament wins + patch notes for the first year of the game if you need proof. The community as a whole told terran players their race was overpowered and should expect harder wins in the future. When it finally came, people bitched, switched races, or just quit rather than get better. Not much else to say IMO.
Cool post bro except the balance changes have had little effect on the majority of people who play sc2, they have been mostly minor tweaks from problems viewed at pro level where play is consistent and worth commenting upon.
Most Terran unit combinations require the user to have better unit control at an earlier level to make them effective. Still though who cares, at pro level its seems pretty good with Terran's still doing the best overall if anything. Just makes me laugh when your average Protoss or Zerg on ladder starts spewing results from GSL's to excuse their loss.
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On March 12 2012 05:51 HardlyNever wrote:
Oh look, another balance qq thread that "isn't a balance qq thread."
Terran was overpowered since release. Look at a combination of tournament wins + patch notes for the first year of the game if you need proof. The community as a whole told terran players their race was overpowered and should expect harder wins in the future. When it finally came, people bitched, switched races, or just quit rather than get better. Not much else to say IMO.
so if we redid GSL1-3 with maps like cloud kingdom or daybreak instead of kulas, steppes of war, or delta quadrant, and protoss still had khaydarin amulet, terran would still win the first 3 gsls? because the only significant terran nerfs since then are the igniter (which only affects tvt), medivac speed, EMP radius and thor energy. hold on, terran didn't even win the first 3 gsls. i hope you're not using foreign tournaments as indicative of balance.
terran has been underpowered since release and the only thing masking that were atrocious blizzard maps that favored terran 1base allins.
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They had to switch to the next easiest race... Protoss...
User was warned for this post
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On March 12 2012 04:44 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 04:30 darkcloud8282 wrote:
What baffles me the most is that Terran players can SEE the potential of their race being played out by Koreans in the GSL and still complain about balance. You now have a goal to work towards and you know that it's possible because people have done it. If everyone focused more on their own play instead of blaming their losses on other things they might actually innovate and improve their skill.
Another good point brought up by others is that Terran does not suit everyone's play style. If you don't play aggressively, Terran is probably not going to work out for you past gold/plat. Actually when I watch streams (not GSL matches which are nothing like ladder because they play a an enormous amount of mindgames and plan their strats out far in advance) I see them having the same problems I have in Masters, a lot of lategame troubles, especially vs protoss. GSL does not even come remotely close to ladder, each build is specifically tuned toward an opponent, I have tried to copy a lot of the builds people have done and they have failed terribly (MVPs tvt proxy maraduers for instance) because they are not meant for ladder and the games should not be interpreted as an equivalent of a ladder match. Again the discussion is NOT about GSL and all the terrans in GSL. The discussion is about the constantly shrinking population of Terran on ladder. When I started Sc2 I knew their were 3 races, but I play TVT so rarely its basically like a 2 race game to me, someone who thinks even 3 races doesn't allow enough variety.
I am not sure what streams you are watching, but take a look at MarineKingPrime's games from MLG, or maybe watch some GSTL games if you want "unplanned builds".
Also, you are saying a proxy marauder cheese strat not working on ladder doesn't make any sense.
The reason for a shrinking population for Terran on ladder is because the majority of people in gold/plat/dia tend to play passive and doing that against Zerg or Protoss means inevitable death. Also, I am not really seeing this huge disparity in races shown here: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Like someone said earlier, as the maps got bigger and nerfs to Terran were made, the 1 base all ins stopped being effective and most people were too lazy/frustrated to learn other builds. They probably have quit the game or swapped over to a race that suits their play style better.
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On March 12 2012 04:05 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 03:50 danielrosca wrote:On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play. Sorry, but this is such a low quality and stupid post.. should you take a few moments and actually read the topic, you'll notice most Terrans up to master complain about the steep learning curve and the required practice time just to be par with P/Z, and exclude pro-level. Why are you making assumptions things you have no experience with. People like to pull random tournament statistics out of the air without considering the massive amount of variables at play within a specific tournament, most important of all the individual players skill levels.... (for example the fact that MVP was GM on KR as random, meaning he can beat other pros as protoss/zerg, he even streamed a few games of him doing it). Wheres your proof all the terrans went to the top? Thats right their isn't any.. I have been masters for a while and I can tell you I play just as few Terrans as I do on my lower level smurfs in plat/diamond, and perhaps fewer, this isn't by any means a problem at the lower leagues, in fact in bronze-gold their isnt a problem at all really of distribution..
What exactly am i assuming? Just read the topic and notice the only consistent thought is how difficult it is to play terran on plat/diamond level, that is active rather than passive like P/Z do.
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i think the battlehellion will solve a lot of the problems casual terrans have, because a sturdy more or less melee unit with a bit of splash will lessen the impact of stutterstep and bioballcontrol, thus helping where i as a platinum terran have my only problem: chargelots
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Don't worry, TLO will switch back again soon its been a couple of months..... 
But on a serious note i have definitely noticed this as well (masters) and has meant that I've been playing less and less T v P and more P v Z and P v P
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It's easier to mimic top pros Z/P as they have general BOs, and just reactionary defensive play. They hit the switch, and it's all out aggression. I find terran pros hard to mimic because terran is just all micro. I can see how they do it, but it doesn't mean I can epic split, land 4 EMPs, focus the collsai, and box split continually against the chargelots...
Pro level sc2 =/= masters level SC2. People talking about going on skids lately? I'm 2-5, 2-6, 3-5, 3-6, and 2-2 in my last recent play sessions, drawing only 7 terrans over those games. About 40 games, 7 terrans.
It's so hard to mimic terrans, as well, as any tourney stream you have to DL the replay, because no one ever looks at terran infrastructure. Addon timing, upgrade timing, gas timings. It's just a glance back, and oh he has 2 rax... look again 5 rax 2 fac 1 port, 4 reactors 2 tech labs like wtf? when did he get them?
The fact that Z/P are learning to deflect all terran early game aggression, and making us go to the mid-late game where we are weak, on equal footing, is the reason for terran decline in the 'normal mans' ladder area.
Hard to learn to mimic micro. Hard to memorize builds, and fluid transitions when the other 2 races turn the aggression switch on, how do they switch their addons, and tech etc.
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stick 900,000 marbles in a jar...
290,000 marbles with a "T" on them
290,000 marbles with a "P" on them
290,000 marbles with a "Z" on them
and 30,000 with an "R" on them.
shake up the jar....reach in and pull out 15 marbles.
on many many occasions you'll get 2 or less of either ther T, P or Z.
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Terran nerfs across the last few patches drive the ignorant masses to feel that terran is at a disadvantage right now*, so people are switching to other races.
*Talking about levels (<Masters) where these nerfs will have little, if any, real effect on the outcome of games
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Terran is just less fun to play, so more people play other races.
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On March 12 2012 06:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
stick 900,000 marbles in a jar...
290,000 marbles with a "T" on them
290,000 marbles with a "P" on them
290,000 marbles with a "Z" on them
and 30,000 with an "R" on them.
shake up the jar....reach in and pull out 15 marbles.
on many many occasions you'll get 2 or less of either ther T, P or Z.
This doesn't make sense and doesn't prove anything. Yes you can't say "Where have all the Terrans gone" with just 15 games. Each race is definitly does not have "290,000" players, or whatever number you want to use.
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On March 12 2012 02:28 zezamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2012 02:23 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I hate threads like this... Absolutely despise them, it is made by a player who's low level, viewed by low level players, and has low level analytical thoughts placed on it such that it becomes misconception of the masses. I'll tell you where the Terran's went, all the way to the top, every season.
Win rate? I think one season Terran was below Protoss in PvT winrate, since 2010... Championships? I think there is a reason Gom was nicknamed GomTvT...
Just because you can't improve your play, don't take tiny statistics without a good base or taking into account the numbers of players per race and then post it like "terran must be to weak".
Last time I checked, Puma isn't having to many troubles? MMA went 13-0 until reaching Puma at IEM.
/endrant
Right now, there is no truly "saviour/flash/bisu" esc player that can really show the Skill ceiling, so balance is currently not even debatable because there is no perfect play. zzz... read the thread, nobody denies that terran is a good race on pro-level. Terran is just so much harder to play at low levels that people give up and change to P/Z.
But, they're not harder to play at low levels. Playing terran can be very forgiving and they are a very good comeback race. They're also the race that is the least likely to get caught off guard, which makes them excellent for low level players.
A poll was done a while back and most players dont agree that terran is clearly the hardest at the lower levels.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=271162
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As a Zerg my weakest match up is Zvt so im quite happy about it. Zvp is a free win and zvz is a coiflip
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The reason that fewer people play terran has little to do with the fact that terran is more difficult to play but more so with the fact that terran is simply considerd "not cool"
this due to the way pro players (and noobs following them) have been bitching about terran as a race since day one.
Idra saying you have to excuse yourself for playing terran and what more is all not conributing to making terran popular
People who play in lower leagues dont choose the easiest race,it amazes me that people dont see this.
Even pros dont choose the strongest or easiest race, else everyone would be playing the same race.
I remember morrow switching to zerg from terran when terran was still considerd the strongest race and zerg the weakest
People choose the race they like, the race with wich they can identify themselves and wich is they think is "cool"
Terran just does not have the x factor wich zerg and toss do
this, and the numerous bad comments you get for playing terran during games on battlenet...is the main reason less people play terran i think.
Its nice to talk about balance but balance is not the cause for everything occuring><
ya terran is getting harder to play (marginally, like annyone below diamond will ever notice the reduced emp radius lol)
No this is not the reason for less people playing terran
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It's getting harder to play as Terran...
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EPT
